10 October 2014 (WG Face-to-Face Facilitated Session)

This meeting will take place in the CONSTELLATION ROOM of the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza. Remote participation facilities will be available and sent via email to all WG members.

Please note: while the meeting will be recorded and transcribed, the meeting is open only to WG members.

Agenda:

PPSAI F2F LA meeting agenda - updated with final topics 7 Oct 2014

Proposed Collaborative Behaviors

Documents for Review:

A. Transfer Issues 

Background Work on Transfer Issues: PPSAI Sub Team - Transfer Issues Report - 12 May 2014

Preliminary Conclusions: WG Preliminary Conclusions for B-3

Current Template: PPSAI ­ Category B ­ Question 3 - updated 22 April 2014

B. Relay Issues 

Preliminary Conclusions: WG Preliminary Conclusion for Cat E - updated 2 Sept 2014

Current Templates: PPSAI – Category E Question 1 - 1 August 2014 and PPSAI - Category E - Question 2 - 14 July 2014

C. Reveal Issues 

Preliminary Conclusions for Category F: PPSAI Prelim Conclusions for Cat F - 3 Oct 2014 

Overview of Category F Charter Questions: List of Category F Questions (with WG sub-questions & definitions)

Current Templates: PPSAI - Category F Question 1 - 25 August 2014 and PPSAI - Category F Question 2 - 25 August 2014

NEW: Discussion Draft on "Disclosure" (from Steve Metalitz and other IPC participants)

NEW: Response Discussion Draft (from Volker Greimann)

NEW: "Redline" comparison of both drafts

D. Possible Accreditation Framework Discussion

Existing Models for PPSAI WG Discussion - 7 Oct 2014

Other Materials

2013 RAA Interim P/P Specification

MP3 Recordings

Part 1: http://audio.icann.org/meetings/losangeles2014/ppsai-1-10oct14-en.mp3

Part 2: http://audio.icann.org/meetings/losangeles2014/ppsai-2-10oct14-en.mp3

Part 3: http://audio.icann.org/meetings/losangeles2014/ppsai-3-10oct14-en.mp3

Part 4:  http://audio.icann.org/meetings/losangeles2014/ppsai-4-10oct14-en.mp3

Meeting Transcripts

Part 1: http://la51.icann.org/en/schedule/transcript-ppsai-1-10oct14-en.pdf

Part 2: http://la51.icann.org/en/schedule/transcript-ppsai-2-10oct14-en.pdf

Part 3: http://la51.icann.org/en/schedule/transcript-ppsai-3-10oct14-en.pdf

Part 4: http://la51.icann.org/en/schedule/transcript-ppsai-4-10oct14-en.pdf

Attendees (on phone and Adobe Connect)

Bret Fausett

Chris Pelling

Constance Brown

David Heasley

Darcy Southwell

David Cake

Don Blumenthal

Graeme Bunton

Griffin Barnett

Frank Michlick

Holly Raiche

James Bladel

Kathy Kleiman

Keith Kupferschmid

Kiran Malancharuvil

Kristina Rosette

Michele Neylon

Osvaldo Novoa

Paul McGrady

Stephanie Perrin

Susan Prosser

Theo Geurts

Todd Williams

Thomas Rickert

Wendy Seltzer

Val Sherman

Vicky Scheckler

Apologies:

Sarah Wyld

Lindsay Hamilton-Reid

Staff:

Amy Bivins

Caitlin Tubergen

Mike Zupke

Glen de Saint Gery

Marika Konings

Mary Wong

Nathalie Peregrine

Terri Agnew

Adobe Connect Chat Transcript

Nathalie  Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the PPSAI WG F2F meeting on the 10th October 2014 in Constellation Room

  Nathalie  Peregrine:The meeting will start at 09:30 local time (16:30 UTC)

  Frank Michlick:I'm hearing promts for the passcode in the adobe room here - but I didn't dial in via phone

  Chris Pelling:Good afternoon all

  Chris Pelling:Good Morning to all in LA

  Frank Michlick:Hello from Montreal

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Hi Frank, that's because you got in early and you heard me setting up :)

  Marika Konings:Hi Chris, Hi Franck. People are slowly gathering here but we hope to get started in 10 minutes or so.

  Chris Pelling:Adobe really should make a version of this for the visually impared where you can split it over 3 screens and thus make things bigger as needed

  Chris Pelling:ooh noise

  Chris Pelling:that guy has a cracking deep voice - he would be great for voiceovers

  Chris Pelling::)

  Chris Pelling:Hi guys are we starting then ? as it is all quiet on the voice bridge

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Yes Chris, I gather they're getting ready to start shortly

  Marika Konings:Can everyone hear Don?

  Keith Kupferschmid:yes

  Frank Michlick:I do not have any audio in the adobe room

  Susan Prosser:neither do I.

  Nathalie  Peregrine:please mute your pc speakers when speaking on the phone

  Frank Michlick:Do I have to rejoin to get audio, or do we have to call in?

  Nathalie  Peregrine:please all dial into the audio bridge passcode PPSAI while this gets fixes

  Nathalie  Peregrine:fixed

  Susan Prosser:ok.  thanks Nathalie

  Nathalie  Peregrine:if you have issues dialing in, please leave meyour number by pm and we can dial out to you

  Frank Michlick:hearing a passcode prompt in the adobe room, but I don't have audio set up there.

  Frank Michlick:got audio now

  Frank Michlick:in the adbone room

  Frank Michlick:oops

  Frank Michlick:adobe

  Chris Pelling:thumb screws ?

  Marika Konings:If any of you participating remotely would like to speak up, please raise your hand in Adobe Connect and I'll make sure you get into the queue.

  Chris Pelling:voice bridhe has gone quiet

  Frank Michlick:yep , no more audio in the adobe room

  Keith Kupferschmid:we have lost audio

  Marika Konings:Or alternatively, if you are not on the audio bridge, you can type in your comment preceded by 'COMMENT' and I can read it out on your behalf.

  Chris Pelling:COMMENT - Voice bridfge dead

  Marika Konings:@Chris - we are looking into it

  Marika Konings:apologies for the inconvenience

  Marika Konings:in the meantime, if we can dial out to any of you, please provide us with your number and we set up a dial-out

  Chris Pelling:uts back

  Keith Kupferschmid:audio back

  Nathalie  Peregrine:we're good now, apologies for the delay. We never have AC issues with this room, and of course, they start today :)

 Chris Pelling:can we unlock the middle tiles please so that they can be zoomed into and moved around ?

  Mary Wong:For our remote participants, please either dial in to the phone bridge (or have us dial out to you) if you plan to speak. That's the easiest way for the WG to hear you clearly without any interference/noise/feedback here in the conference room.

  Chris Pelling:We never left the pitch forks did we ? :P :)

  Chris Pelling:- sorry that was me

  Mary Wong:Quite all right, Chris, no worries!

  Chris Pelling:+1 To Jame's point as the FOA has to show what we gained if challenged

  Chris Pelling:Sorry, did this speaker announce himself?  Just do not know whom it was

  Marika Konings:It is Paul McGrady speaking

  Chris Pelling:cheers Marika :)

  Chris Pelling:Thats Michele :p

  Chris Pelling:Document has gone on screen ?

  Chris Pelling:thanks

  Marika Konings:@Chris - we are putting up the transfer document

  Marika Konings:You can also find it on the wiki: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/qALQBg

  Chris Pelling:Cheers Marika, I can zoom into this one :)

  Chris Pelling:Only if there is a mechaniism in place yes I would agree

  Marika Konings:Following up on the Thick Whois question, the project plan currently foresees that the transfer of data to Thick Whois would be complete by August 2016.

  Chris Pelling:@Michele, it might be that PP providers who trust each other build a mechanism to talk to each other externally

  Marika Konings:@Chris - would you like to be in the queue to share your point?

  Chris Pelling:as per Michele, its the Mechanism and cost thereof of building that/imp;lementing that

  Chris Pelling:Markika, Nah you are fine, I thought this was being seen to the room, I then remembred I should put up COMMENT :p

  Marika Konings:Many in the room are logged into AC but not everyone.

  Michele Neylon:Chris are you dialled in?

  Marika Konings:let me ask if it is possible to put up the AC room on one of the screens in the room

  Chris Pelling:yes Michele - I can here your Nice Irish tones :)

  Chris Pelling:I am just backing up what you guys are sauying - no point in talking about it as per the first discussion this morning about hammering home the same view :)

  Marika Konings:Just checked, but unfortunately we can only show one thing at the time on the screen so now the room has the transfer document up.

  Chris Pelling:ok Marika, Ill poke when I want to talk :)

  Chris Pelling:comment: please also remember serverHOLD by the registry when under court order and the registgrar has no rights, nor does the registrant

  Marika Konings:@Chris - I've added myself to the queue to read your comment

  Chris Pelling:ta :)

  Marika Konings:and Thomas already got there before ;-)

  Chris Pelling:hehe :)

  Chris Pelling:comment: that would mean changes to the RAA 2013

  wseltzer:I was on the phone at 10, now in the room.

  Chris Pelling:+1 to Michele for UK Law

  Graeme Bunton:Thomas has not died, for the record

  Nathalie  Peregrine:For those on the phone, once the session goes on break, please dial the same number to join the phone bridge, with the passcode PPSAI 2. Thank you

  Chris Pelling:As long as there is some technical solution implemented to be honest it should not be a problem for private to private

  Chris Pelling:ServerHOLD is much the same where the domain is "hekd"

  Chris Pelling:held *

  Chris Pelling:@Nathalie, will this adobe connect URL stay the same so we can leave it open /

  Chris Pelling:?

  Marika Konings:@Chris - yes

  Chris Pelling:Bingo :)

Marika Konings:We are on a short break until 11.30 PST (15 minutes from now)

  Chris Pelling:comment : it is only on a per pp service provider and should certainly not be free

  Marika Konings:@Chris - please note that we are now projecting the Adobe Connect room on the screen in the meeting room so everyone should be able to see your comments. But please let me know as well if you would like to have them read out.

  Chris Pelling:aha perfect Marika :)

 Chris Pelling:There are many reasons why it may not be deliverable

  Chris Pelling:for example, mailbox full

  Chris Pelling:@Steve, then this should be a chargeable action

  Chris Pelling:Steve as iterated once before, some mail servers will not even respond

  Val Sherman:@Chris -- we're only talking about those bounces of which the Provider is made aware. If a mail server doesn't respond, and the Provider is not made aware, the requirement to notify the Complainant would not apply.

  Chris Pelling:I do not mind saying this, in man hours/cost it is circa £45.00 to do it

  Chris Pelling:also, if an email bounces AND the service provider  knows, as per Section 3.7.8  of the RAA, the domain is suspended

  Chris Pelling:you can then be assured the customer will be on the phone / email / smoke signlas to make contact to find out why suspension and its simple, RNH invalid information

  Mary Wong:@Chris, you're also referring to Section 4 of the Whois Accuracy spec, right? The obligation to re-verify (and possibly suspend) if a Rr knows contact info is inaccurate e.g via bounce or non-deliverable notification?

  Chris Pelling:Yes Mary, however, we do it to the letter, as thats a Compliance point on ICANN, and to be honest, its easier and quicker to suspend a domain, get a response from the registrant in a few hours, rather than ICANN compliance on the registrars case

  Chris Pelling:no disrespect to ICANN compliance, but, quicker to get the customer to get hold of you rather than the back and fourth with ICANN :)

 Chris Pelling:@Speaker, to be honest its not our job to make sure someone has read an email

  Theo Geurts:You cover that in your GTC Chris and it cannot be an issue.

  Chris Pelling:Thanks mary :)

  Chris Pelling:*Mary

  Mary Wong:My pleasure, Chris - esp as Marika and I aren't being mistaken for each other, for once :)

  Chris Pelling::)

  Chris Pelling:@Steve as long as you do not mind there being a cost to that other method

  Chris Pelling:Obly if the RAA is taken by the Legal lawyer who is providing his own service

  Chris Pelling:RAA is only binding on regisstrars

  Chris Pelling:TBH section 3.7.8 is a "tool"

  Chris Pelling:in that we can use it for confirming information and we have a clear definition of what we can do

  Chris Pelling:Lawyers are not geverned by it

  Marika Konings:@Chris - the WG does have a preliminary recommendation for Category B, question 2 that recommends similar requirements for P/P providers.

  Marika Konings:If the P/P service has any information suggesting that the P/P customer information is incorrect (such as P/P service receiving a bounced email notification or non-delivery notification message in connection with compliance with data reminder notices or otherwise) for any P/P customer, the P/P provider must verify or re-verify, as applicable, the email address(es). If, within fifteen (15) calendar days after receiving any such information, P/P service does not receive an affirmative response from the P/P customer providing the required verification, the P/P service shall verify the applicable contact information manually.

  Chris Pelling:excellent marika

  Chris Pelling:Steve - sorry but we had lots  of HOURS on this on the tuesday calls

  Chris Pelling:it is NOT us the sending party configuring the server, it is the receiving server

  Chris Pelling:the receiving server is configured by the customers service provider

  Chris Pelling:^^ meaning email server

  Chris Pelling:so back in an hour and 15, PPSAI 3

  Chris Pelling:Enjoy lunch all :)

  Mary Wong:Yes, we're breaking for lunch now. See you all back here at 1400 Pacific (Los Angeles) time - and yes, thanks much for the reminder, Chris, dial in passcode for the next session is PPSAI 3.

  Chris Pelling:Im here - how are we doing as the voice bridge is quiet ?

  Marika Konings:Can you hear us Chris? We are getting started now.

  Chris Pelling:I can now Marika, obviously a party at lunch :)

  Marika Konings::-)

  Chris Pelling:Volker replied quiet quickly if memory serves Steve

  Mary Wong:@Chris, I think Steve may have been referring to the consolidated provider document that had been discussed in earlier calls; Volker's response seems to have been a personal one directly responding to the proposal Steve sent around.

  Chris Pelling:I thought the proposal though Mary was on Wednesdaym and Volker replied within 2h30 mins

  Mary Wong:@Chris, yes - we are probably talking about two different documents :)

  Chris Pelling:agreed

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I agree with James

  Chris Pelling:what was that ?

  Chris Pelling:I didnt here it :p

  Mary Wong:@Chris, do you mean Michele's remarks?

  Chris Pelling:yeah I got the idea it was the Irishman belowing, but did not quite here it :)  it made everyone lauigh so was good :)

  Michele Neylon:https://www.stopbadware.org/web-hosting-best-practices

  Mary Wong:@Michele, this is currently in the WG's draft recommendations for Category F: "the WG recommends that ICANN’s Accreditation Program include a requirement for all accredited providers to include on their websites, and in all Publication or Disclosure-related policies and documents, a link to a [standardized] Request Form or an equivalent list of specific criteria that the provider requires in order to comply with such requests.."

  Michele Neylon:k

  Mary Wong:Per Steve's comment, the WG's draft preliminary conclusions for this Category relevant to the current discussion is now on screen.

  Kathy:Does anyone have a problem with Notification to Beneficial Owner of the Domain Name?

  Chris Pelling:I assume as breaking late, we wont be exact on time in 1 minute, can someone state here when it is started or starting and I will dial in

  Chris Pelling:many thnaks ::)

  Marika Konings:We'll be starting in one minute

  Chris Pelling:Cheers marika

  Marika Konings:well, that is an ICANN minute ;-)

  Chris Pelling:ah ok Im here now :p

  Chris Pelling:hehe

  Chris Pelling:almost midnight here :p

  Marika Konings:and we have officially started again!

  Marika Konings:thanks for hanging in there Chris!

  Chris Pelling:No probs Marika, needs to be done :)

  Mary Wong:FYI and as a reminder: Amy's presentation is based on the document she and Mike Zupke prepared and sent around earlier this week. It's available on the WG wiki: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/qALQBg

  Chris Pelling:can aspeakers please state whom they are ?

  Mary Wong:That was (and now is) Kathy Kleiman; David Cake was speaking right before this.

  Chris Pelling:Thanks Mary

  Mary Wong:And Mike Zupke (Director, Registrar Services), is responding to their questions.

  Mary Wong:Holly Raiche is now speaking.

  Chris Pelling:ultimately its non compliance and termination if you do not resolve it

  Kathy:Sorry for not identifying, Chris. Glad you are there!

  Chris Pelling:Im still awake :p

  Chris Pelling:hehe

  Kathy:wish we could send you some coffee....

  Kiran Malancharuvil:we are bogarting the coffee over here!  :)

  Chris Pelling:thats ok Kathy Mr Walker has kept me awake :)

  Don:Hiram or Johnny?

Chris Pelling:@Don - Jonny of course :)

  Mary Wong:Per James' question, the current interim P/P spec says: "2.5 Escrow of P/P Customer Information. Registrar shall include P/P Customer contact information in its Registration Data Escrow deposits required by Section 3.6 of the Agreement. P/P Customer Information escrowed pursuant to this Section 2.5 of this Specification may only be accessed by ICANN in the event of the termination of the Agreement or in the event Registrar ceases business operations."

  Chris Pelling:GoDaddy will remember that debacle

  Chris Pelling:I think we should stear away from forcing a registrar to list accredited PP providers, most ICANN registrars will be using their own afiliated ones

  Kathy:Lego track for Paul

  Chris Pelling:Sorry can I ask who was talking please ?

  Mary Wong:ICANN has a standard definition for a "privacy service" and a "proxy service" - used uniformly for the Whois Studies, EWG work and this WG, among others. Hope that helps, Phil.

  Mary Wong:@Chris, that was Phil Corwin. Holly is now speaking - and now back to James Bladel.

  Chris Pelling:Thanks mary

  Chris Pelling:*Mary

  Mary Wong:It may not be possible to obtain a reliable and accurate list or number of privacy or proxy service providers since many such services do not use a uniform description for their services, making it difficult to ascertain who is what, or indeed whether a particular provider is one or the other (or neither).

  Mary Wong:ICANN's various reports and studies have (as mentioned) used a uniform definition so that at least our sampling, data and results are consistent.

  Mary Wong:And that was Volker Greimann.

  Chris Pelling:Also just to be clear, we should also confirm that a ICANN registrar is not forced to accept an accredited PP provider if the ICANN registrar does not wish too

  Mary Wong:Per Steve's comment, that was the WG's prelim conclusion for B-1: "Domain name registrations involving privacy/proxy service providers should be clearly labeled as such in Whois. There may be various ways to implement this recommendation in order to achieve this objective; the feasibility and effectiveness of these options should be further explored as part of the implementation process ... "

  Chris Pelling:crumbs on time :)

  Chris Pelling:I am still here :p

  Todd Williams:+1 Steve on notification.  But notification of the bounce to the complainant, not customer.

  Chris Pelling:for example mailbox full as person is on holiday

  Chris Pelling:the bounce notification has to be sanitsed

  Chris Pelling:sanitized *

  Chris Pelling:^^

  Chris Pelling::)

  Chris Pelling:section 3.7.8 of raa 2009

  Chris Pelling:discussed earlier today

  Kiran Malancharuvil:CHris - was on a plane, thanks for your patience

  Chris Pelling:Surely we are not discussing that no response from the RNH would mean reveal ?  As Kathy mentioned before, RNH may not want to respond.

  Chris Pelling:maybe RNH has to acknowledge receipt of it if a link is in the forwarded mail ?

  wseltzer:my comment included "file a motion to quash or stay disclosure" too.

  Mary Wong:@Wendy, I've added something generic to avoid specific descriptions of processes that may go by different names in different jurisdictions.

  wseltzer:@Mary, thanks

  Mary Wong:@Wendy, great!

  Chris Pelling:more like lack of sleep :p

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Exacccctly Chris.  :)

  Chris Pelling:hwhw I know that feeling Kiran, I am now on teething - it doesnt get any better

  Chris Pelling::(

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Oh my!  Good luck with that! 

  Chris Pelling:For remote participants, I vote ICANN should send out a few beers out :)

  Chris Pelling:is there an electronic version of the form Marika ?

  Marika Konings:I'll send the form to the list now as well

  Chris Pelling:thanks :)

  Don:Chris. Thanks very much for stayig with us. I appreciate the interest and commitmen. I'll look for Scotch in your honor when we get to the bar.

  Chris Pelling:hehe Thanks Don, if it is essentially over now, Ill wander off to bed :) 0130 here

  Chris Pelling:Thanks all - have a good "knees up" :)

  Mary Wong:Thanks, Chris and everyone who's been participating remotely today!

  Mary Wong:Bye for now, everyone! Thank you all again!