29 April 2014
- Mary Wong
- Aleksey Khapchenko
The next Privacy & Proxy Services Accreditation Issues PDP WG teleconference is scheduled for Tuesday 29 April 2014 at 1400 UTC 07:00 PDT, 10:00 EDT, 15:00 London, 16:00 CET
For other times: http://tinyurl.com/mk5cays
Adobe Connect WITH AUDIO enabled: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/ppsai/
Agenda:
- Roll Call/Updates to SOI
- Finalization of preliminary conclusions for Category B, Question 3
- Begin deliberations on Category C, Question 1 (uploaded to WG wiki; see email below)
- Next Steps & Planning for London
Documents for Review:
Template - Cat B - Question 3 - with preliminary conclusions as of 22 April 2014
Draft Template - Cat C - Question 1 - 12 April 2014
Draft Template - Cat C - Question 2 - 29 April 2014
MP3 Recording: http://gnso.icann.org/en/node/44891
Meeting Transcript: http://gnso.icann.org/en/meetings/transcript-ppsa-29apr14-en.pdf
Attendees:
Luc Seufer - RrSG
Graeme Bunton – RrSG
Tim Ruiz – RrSG
Steve Metalitz - IPC
Kathy Kleiman – RySG
Darcy Southwell - RrSG
Libby Baney - BC
Justin Macy – BC
David Heasley – IPC
Michele Neylon – RrSG
Jennifer Standiford – RrSG
James Bladel – RrSG
Volker Greimann – RrSG
Tobias Sattler – RrSG
Phil Marano – IPC
Christian Dawson – ISPCP
Griffin Barnett – IPC
Valeriya Sherman – IPC
Don Moody – IPC
Alex Deacon – IPC
Kiran Malancharuvil – IPC
Laura Jedeed – BC
Sarah Wyld - RrSG
Apologies:
Gema Campillos – GAC
Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP
Don Blumenthal – RySG
Roy Balleste - NCUC
ICANN staff:
Marika Konings
Mary Wong
Amy Bivins
Nathalie Peregrine
Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 29 April 2014:
Marika Konings:Welcome to the PPSAI WG meeting of 29 April 2014
Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:Good morning.
Mary Wong:Hello Sarah and everyone
Graeme Bunton:Good morning all
Nathalie Peregrine:Jennifer Standiford has joined the call
Kathy K:Steve, I am still coming onto the phone... but what is the timeline for the subgroup on the technical subgroup?
Nathalie Peregrine:tobias Sattler has joined the call
Tobias Sattler:Sorry, for being late
Mary Wong:@Kathy, in response to your email request on the list, we've included the Threshojld Question for Category C in the Notes pod (on the right side of your screen). Hope this helps!
Bladel:Or maybe we decided to have the group, but were still working on its mission?
Luc Seufer:So first we assemble the avengers and then we find them a mission?
Mary Wong:@James, I don't believe the WG agreed to it definitively, though we got a few volunteers should one be formed.
Nathalie Peregrine:Kiran Malancharuvil has joined the audio bridge
Mary Wong:The wording on the preliminary conclusion in this part is based on the WG discussion and AC chat from last week.
Bladel:I'll defer to Kathy on this point.
Bladel:Her memory is better than mine. :)
Michele Neylon:more IRTPs?
Michele Neylon:NO NO
Michele Neylon:NO NO
Michele Neylon::)
Luc Seufer:not sure you'll get an athos with that behavior :-p
Luc Seufer:ethos rather
Mary Wong:Link to AC chat from last week: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/rAHQBg
Mary Wong:Excerpt: steve metalitz:I am open to making this an accreditation requirement IF there is a practical way to do it. The purpose of the subgroup would be to answer whether it is practical. steve metalitz:"This" = enabling transfer without losing p/p protection. Kathy K:Agree with Steve! Paul McGrady:Agree with Steve and Kathy Amr Elsadr:Also agree with Steve. Val Sherman:+1 @Steve
Kathy K:+1 James - ID the hurdles, suggest
Kathy K:ways forward, IRTP out of bounds
Nathalie Peregrine:Val Shearman has joined the call
Bladel:(dont say charter dont say charter).
Bladel::)
Kathy K:Sure
Bladel:Yes
Kathy K:agreed
Nathalie Peregrine:Phil Marano has joined the call
Nathalie Peregrine:Volker Greimann has joined the call
Bladel:Private Transfer?
Michele Neylon:+1 to James
Michele Neylon:audio gone for me
Kathy K:It was the IPC that provided us with the legitimate purposes for proxy/privacy services for commercial entities
Michele Neylon:thoguh that could be my wifi
Libby Baney:+1 to Kiran
Bladel:Most major banks also use these services.
Michele Neylon:conflating p/p with fake pharma is like yelling "think of the children"
Justin Macy:+1 Kiran
Michele Neylon:and is a massive red herring
Kiran Malancharuvil:and what's wrong with thinking of the children Michele?
Kathy K:That's what I remember too - that the banks used proxy/privacy
Michele Neylon:Kiran - seriously?
Kiran Malancharuvil:Yes seriously. There are a LOT of people who die from counterfeit pharma sales online every year. Ignoring it is kind of despicable.
Michele Neylon:It's got nothing to do with P/P
Michele Neylon:+1 to Tim
Kiran Malancharuvil:haha, okay Michele.
Luc Seufer:Wow since when a domain name can host content?
Luc Seufer:+1 Tim
Michele Neylon:+1 to Tim again
Michele Neylon:my mother doesn't know what whois is
Michele Neylon:why the hell should she?
Bladel:In fact, we conducted an experiment on this in the WHOIS review team. Most usesr go to the 'About Us" page, not much awareness of WHOIS.
Graeme Bunton:no ones mother knows what WHOS is
Kiran Malancharuvil:People in the consumer protection game use WHOIS, is your mother in consumer protection?
Luc Seufer:We should make a t-shirt out of that one
Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm a mother and I know what WHOIS is.
Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:My mother knows how to do a whois
Michele Neylon:Luc - oh :)
Kiran Malancharuvil:Don't be disrespectful of women by making these stupid comments about "mothers."
Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:+1 Kiran
Kathy K:lost connection... please move forward with queue
Nathalie Peregrine:Kathy, you're still showing as connected on the bdirge
Nathalie Peregrine:would you like a dial ouy?>
Luc Seufer:I can't speak for the rest of the world but in the EU, entities willing to do businesses have the obligation to display their contact details on their website, not in the whois
Libby Baney:Isn't it easier to lie on the face of a website (e.g. in the About Us) than it is supposed to be in the WHOIS data?
Kiran Malancharuvil:Yes Libby. Whois, with it's new verification requirements would be much safer
Luc Seufer:which is based on policy
Luc Seufer:the website req. is based on legal obligation. Hoster will have to suspend their services if the details are inacurrate. (speaking of the EU)
Kiran Malancharuvil:So is that content regulation then Luc?
Kathy K:still on hold
Tim Ruiz:Agree with Steve about not making it a requirement to accept commercial customers as a p/p provider.
Luc Seufer:@Kiran , yes sort of.
Libby Baney:@kiran, yes - thanks. So transparent WHOIS data for commercial activities would then be another data point for consumers to check, possiblly in additon to the About Us info on the face of a website
Kiran Malancharuvil:That seems more complicated than verifying Whois data
Kiran Malancharuvil:All of the questions James is raising are worth discussion
Mary Wong:Since the Privacy & Proxy Abuse Study was referenced, just a note that the researchers found a higher-than-average rate of P/P use for illegal activities, but that among legal users there was also a fairly high percentage of use among several such type of legal entities (viz. banks and adult websites).
Graeme Bunton:+1 James
Kathy K:back online
Mary Wong:Note also that the researchers did not distinguish btwn commercial or non-commercial, entity or individual users - the legal uses were chosen to "mirror" the illegal categories of activities they were studying.
Libby Baney:A number of issues/questions were just raised; I hope we get to address each in turn
Tim Ruiz:What would we be trying to accomplish by denying "commercial" users or creating other types of categories? Given the difficulties it would create with verifying who is and isn't a particular category, enforcement, etc., doesn't it make more sense to discuss what we want from it and then see if there isn't a better way to get there, such as in reveal?
Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm not sure that B2B providers are expempt from business licensing, which is public .
Michele Neylon:FYI - the US is NOT the World
Michele Neylon:#justsaying
Graeme Bunton:good points Kathy
Libby Baney:@Kathy - seems we could make the distinction between comm/non-comm activities, not "entities" -- for the reasons you just note re e.g. 501(c)(3)
Kiran Malancharuvil:There are licensing requirements in the EU
Tim Ruiz:@Michele +1
Michele Neylon:Kiran - not in all countries and not for all types of business
Michele Neylon:please don't preach to me about my own jurisdiction :)
Kiran Malancharuvil:I am well aware. I have two of my higher degrees from the EU.
Kiran Malancharuvil:Don't assume that because I'm american I have a centric approach.
Kathy K:Marketplace of ideas vs. marketplace of goods and services - many organizations, foundations and groups are dedicated to ideas, not goods and services
Bladel:Lets do thist.
Michele Neylon:rat holes are great
Bladel:First accredited PP servcie will come online in 2020.
Michele Neylon:But I don't get paid to do PDPs
Michele Neylon:so I'll have left by then
Kathy K:Why - good question, Tim
Bladel:I vote for the rat hole. Status quo will be maintained until I retire.
Bladel::)
Michele Neylon:+1 James :)
Luc Seufer:hum.. how long do we have? 5+ years? :-P
Libby Baney:@Tim - good point. I'd say this issue is highly important for us to strike the right balance between transparency and privacy
Volker Greimann:can we do a rabbit hole instead? they are bigger
Tim Ruiz:You call the rat hole rhetoric, and make the rat hole even bigger with your comment.
Kathy K:I think we should discuss the threshold question at the beginnin gof next week - with a larger group
Tim Ruiz:Agree with Kathy
Bladel:+1 Kathy.
Tim Ruiz:@volker, rabbit hole it is. I like the association with Wonderland. ;-)
Luc Seufer:2 hour pres. should be sufficient
Kathy K:Prefer not to move ahead -- talk next meeting?
Tim Ruiz:I would prefer to dicuss this next week again first.
Tim Ruiz:@Kathy, Agree.
Kiran Malancharuvil:THanks
Darcy Southwell:Thanks
Luc Seufer:Thanks
Phil Marano:Thank you!