AC Chat: 2019-04-17 Consolidated Policy Working Group Call

Michelle DeSmyter: (4/17/2019 07:24) Dear all, welcome to the At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group Call on Wednesday, 17 April 2019 at 13:00 UTC.
  Michelle DeSmyter: (07:43) Wiki agenda page: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/aRLwBQ
  Evin Erdoğdu: (07:51) Hello all, welcome.
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (07:55) Good morning all
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (07:55) LOL how Olivier of you ;)
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:56) Hil All
  Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:56) Hi all
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:56) A short video  with Jon Zuck and George Kirikos on the  Registry agreements was done last week on Zoom
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:57) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DKW3I1oFGbv0&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=J8ibn3fEkd4mXJKso0a2yJTYVh9NGBDJ9K6YhPP7PKw&s=fbXzRTgpXWgen_RflU7dolO95im0wCEi-3dyoP4tzoQ&e=
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (07:57) Cool Glenn! Thanks
  Vanda Scartezini: (07:57) hi everyone
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (07:57) Morning Vanda
  George Kirikos: (07:57) Hi folks.
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:58) Eduardo and I are launching the NARALO INSIGHTS  series on all things policy
  Vanda Scartezini: (07:58) morning John
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:58) These videos will be showcased in our  monthly newsletter and the Draft ATLARGE Blog
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (07:58) Glenn be sure to send links to Evin so she can add them to the SoMe editorial calendar
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:58) Please contact me if interestd
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:59) @john I will,  will be creating a mailcard on the series
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (07:59) awesome
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:59) waiting for feedback on the mailcard i created for the ATLAS 3 google form application
  Jonathan V Zuck: (08:00) sounds col Glenn
  Satish Babu: (08:00) Hi everyone...
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:00) FYI I have a hard stop at 14:00 UTC (another meeting)
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:00) I need to leave  at 9 30
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:01) 1/2 hr from now
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:01) @Greg  did you want to do an video interview on the new EU Copyright laws?
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:01) no sound
  George Kirikos: (08:01) Mute?
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:02) Hi George
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:02) nope
  George Kirikos: (08:02) Hi Glenn.
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:02) I have updated my SOI but it's more or less the same with a few augmentations.
  judith hellerstein: (08:04) I have updated my SOI as well but had some IT issues that Yesim brought up to ICANN IT
  George Kirikos: (08:06) Someone's line is open?
  judith hellerstein: (08:06) we have an echo
  George Kirikos: (08:06) Lots of background noise.
  Evin Erdoğdu: (08:06) Sorry for that @George
  Alan Greenberg: (08:07) Advice PRESUMING it passes!
  Evin Erdoğdu: (08:08) Right!
  Evin Erdoğdu: (08:08) @Alan
  Evin Erdoğdu: (08:08) Will check on that for you
  George Kirikos: (08:08) A few folks have added comments on the Wiki, too.
  Marita Moll: (08:08) Yes, I listened to it and it was great. Thanks for doing that.
  Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:09) I also supported resuming the work of the EPDP after the new chair is in place
  George Kirikos: (08:10) Those slides are representative of Jonathan's views, not mine.
  judith hellerstein: (08:11) I listened to it for Greg and took notes on it and also put notes on the wiki on the key points that George had stated for the wiki
  Evin Erdoğdu: (08:12) Greg Shatan's draft is posted to the .org RA At-Large workspace: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/o34eBg
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:17) ICA  is the  Internet  Commerce  Association
  judith hellerstein: (08:19) I put a summary of George's views on the wiki from the video
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:20) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.internetcommerce.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=J8ibn3fEkd4mXJKso0a2yJTYVh9NGBDJ9K6YhPP7PKw&s=Ufe2YLMxjqk3x8B-AGwNESkA6i2VQcMqUslDBTHRR14&e=
  Jonathan V Zuck: (08:21) I mean t to bring one
  Alan Greenberg: (08:26) Can we please keep interventions short?
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:27) Concur Alan
  George Kirikos: (08:29) Craigslist on Craigslist.org
  MICHAEL@PALAGE.COM: (08:29) @George - I do not fully appreciate the "legal" argument about "ownership" of a TLD between old and legacy.  Take .COM those domain names were originally free to users in the mid 90's.  I acknowledge that I work for CPH (Registries and Registrars) that may impact my view. But I really struggle with you difference between legacy and new TLDs
  George Kirikos: (08:29) PIR's revenues for .org will be on the order of $100 million/yr.
  George Kirikos: (08:30) @Michael: registry operators are mere service providers, managing the zone file and resolving the domains. That costs less than $1/yr/domain.
  George Kirikos: (08:30) Registries should not be looking at the value of the domain name itself, and trying to somehow "tax" that.
  George Kirikos: (08:31) (new gTLDs are trying to do that, to their own detriment)
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:31) from my view had been working with them for some time in the past, they provide a solid domanin for the end uses
  MICHAEL@PALAGE.COM: (08:31) The ultimate safeguard for a contracting party abusing their position in the marketplace is competition authories, it was the DG-IV investigations that helps steer some of the early ICANN formation decision, and the DoJ which has impacted the pricing within .COM over the years
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:31) Fascinating discussion.  This type of back and forth is informative and I appreciate the discussion ( hence why we did the video last week) more to come called NARALO INSIGHTS with Eduardo and me using  ZOOM.  Any volunteers and ideas are welcome.  I am sorry i need to go very soon due to annual checkup at the doctors today
  Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:31) we can hear you
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:32) Greg sound a bit muffled
  Michelle DeSmyter: (08:33) @Greg - please speak closer to your mic, it is sounding a bit muffled, the interpreters are having a hard time hearing you.  Thank you so much.
  George Kirikos: (08:33) .org isn't a penny per year domain name.
  Alan Greenberg: (08:33) The only relev. I see is that .org domains may tend to be more public interest than those from some other TLDs.
  Alan Greenberg: (08:33) Yes, VERY cheap domains cause problems. This is not one of those cases.
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:33) difficult to hear Greg
  George Kirikos: (08:35) See the BCG-related URS decisions I pointed out last week, which were very dubious.
  Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:35) Please email the recording of this session so i can finish listening later
  Alan Greenberg: (08:36) If we say anything, it should be in defence of those registrants who are generally individual users.
  MICHAEL@PALAGE.COM: (08:36) The operation of a registry is not soley the provisioning of technical services - while that may be one of the more public facing aspects there is more to running  a successful TLD other than operating a SRS and a global DNS network resolution system
  Jonathan V Zuck: (08:36) Agree @Alan
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:36) guess it is relevant to have a real price that makes profit for the company to guarantee a very stable and secure, this is the main issue we should expect from a registry. IMO PIR works under this concepts of high standards
  George Kirikos: (08:37) @Michael: give a single example of PIR doing anything for registrants over the last 10 years. THey do little, but collect big cheques. Afilias (their subcontractor) does all the work, at a fee that is determined by competition (tender process).
  George Kirikos: (08:38) Here's an example of "justice" under the URS, where a Chinese registrant not using a domain had it suspended: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.adrforum.com_DomainDecisions_1815095D.htm&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=J8ibn3fEkd4mXJKso0a2yJTYVh9NGBDJ9K6YhPP7PKw&s=1AeaeUc5fzZHAuB57hSsMQR05F_32riXIXOUvSyIGTQ&e=
  George Kirikos: (08:38) With very little reasoning or justification.
  George Kirikos: (08:38) "BCG" has multiple competing uses.
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:39) George, PIR  supports financially  ISOC around the world  and this is relevant for end users
  George Kirikos: (08:39) @Vanda: why should registrants be taxed to support ISOC?
  George Kirikos: (08:39) i.e. it's a forced charitable donation, a "tax".
  George Kirikos: (08:40) Prior to getting control over .org, ISOC was also doing those things, and raising money on their own. Now they have a captive audience they can tax.
  Alan Greenberg: (08:40) Remember that we have been criticized for not limiting our comments to issues important to users.
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:41) most of the cost for registrant were not at Registry side but Registrar's side that explore some time too much the registrant  depending on the country they are with or without competition
  George Kirikos: (08:42) @Vanda: that's not correct. The registry fees swamp the margins that registrars get from registrants.
  Greg Shatan: (08:42) Agree with Sebastien
  A-Eduardo Diaz: (08:42) I have not heard why Non registrant user are  affected by the possibly price increase (or maybe I missed that). I think that is the issue that we should concentrate on.
  George Kirikos: (08:42) If a registrar charges $12/yr, $10 of that is to the registry operator.
  MICHAEL@PALAGE.COM: (08:42) So PIR was one of the first registries to implement the concept of a micro-payment to help remove domain name tasting, this was before the RSEPS that Afilias and Neustar did.  PIR has also attempted to providea more secure enviornment for NGOs with the additional TLDs that they have secured. While you George as an .ORG may not find value in these additional TLDs, that is a business decision PIR is permitted to do
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:42) @george yes and if that revenue is used for the benefit of all, I'm on board.
  Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:43) yes judith
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:43) too loud
  George Kirikos: (08:43) @John: what you're describing is taxation. "For the benefit of all" has been used to justify things that are really "for the benefit of few".
  Greg Shatan: (08:43) ISOC stands up for end users, just as At Large does.
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:44) + 1 Greg
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:44) @george It's taxation when a government executes it. it's a fee when executed by a non-governmental agency.
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:44) +1 Greg
  Marita Moll: (08:44) I like Judith's idea
  Satish Babu: (08:44) +1 for UA
  Greg Shatan: (08:45) In this case, it’s a subsidy that benefits end users, not a tax.
  George Kirikos: (08:45) lol
  judith hellerstein: (08:45) it is universal acceptance not access
  George Kirikos: (08:45) It's a compelled fee -- a tax.
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:46) @George Fair disclosure: politically I'm a progressive liberal in the US sense so I'm not opposed to taxation on general principle. I favor taxes if they bring benefit to society.
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:46) NowTHAT I can support OCL
  Greg Shatan: (08:46) that is your view. And I found your LOL inappropriate.
  Greg Shatan: (08:47) above replied it
  George Kirikos: (08:47) Show me any contract that ICANN has entered into where it's suppliers can charge any fee they want to ICANN.
  Greg Shatan: (08:47) toGeorge.
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:47) @George So if your argument is an anti-tax based, it doesn't have much traction with me even though I empathize.
  George Kirikos: (08:47) *its, even
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:48) I remember that Alan
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:49) I need to go Chair another call at the top of the hour apologies ...  I will leave this room and just continue to listen  only to the rest of this call...
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:49) Agree Alan
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:49) strong concurrence
  Christopher Wilkinson: (08:50) @Alan is right about that point +1
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:50) More like the FCC allocating spectrum in the US...except  ICANN isn't a government
  Marita Moll: (08:54) That's great Jonathan. I think the talking points are really important. It keeps us on track.
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:55) Good plan JZ...
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:55) :-)
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:55) yay talking points!
  Justine Chew: (08:55) Yes, please. We should be doing work outside of At-Large sessions.
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:56) INdeed By many not by just the few who do now
  Justine Chew: (08:56) @JZ, how will you be soliciting input on the talking points?
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:56) Great early end allows me to go clear for my next call
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:57) LMAO
  George Kirikos: (08:57) hehehe
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:57) Bye   Book 90 and enjoy any early ending
  Justine Chew: (08:57) Cool, thanks, Big Chief!
  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:57) bye
  Justine Chew: (08:58) Good one
  George Kirikos: (08:58) Bye folks.
  A-Eduardo Diaz: (08:58) Thnaks
  John Laprise (ALAC/NARALO): (08:58) bye all
  Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:58) thank you all bye
  Christopher Wilkinson: (08:58) @.org - <URS> - ?
  Evin Erdoğdu: (08:58) Thank yo uall!
  Kaili Kan: (08:58) Bye!
  Gordon Chillcott: (08:58) Thanks and bye for  now.
  Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong: (08:58) Bye
  Vanda Scartezini: (08:58) thanks all
  Harold Arcos: (08:58) BYE
  haroun mahamat cherif: (08:59) tx u
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh: (08:59) bye - take care all