Zoom chat: 2023-09-13 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

00:18:49    Steinar Grøtterød (At-Large):    Hi all. Unfortunately, I have a hard stop at 13:30 UTC
00:19:21    Chokri Ben Romdhane:    Good Afternoon
00:19:45    Betty Fausta:    HI Chokri
00:20:37    Chokri Ben Romdhane:    Replying to "HI Chokri"

Bonsoir Betty content de vous avoir a ce call
00:20:48    Chokri Ben Romdhane:    Reacted to "HI Chokri" with 
00:21:12    Mouloud Khelif:    Hi everyone !
00:21:35    Alan Greenberg:    Since Michelle said Greg will be joining shortly, perhaps we could delay Closed Generics report until he arrives.
00:21:52    Steinar Grøtterød (At-Large):    @Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : Update from the Transfer Policy is given by Lutz to the mailing list. He may add some more on this call
00:22:21    Sandra Rodriguez:    Hello Everyone
00:23:12    Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org:    To follow along with the RTT:  https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
00:23:13    Sivasubramanian Muthusamy:    Hi all
00:24:10    Roberto Gaetano:    Hi all - sorry to be late
00:25:10    Lutz Donnerhacke:    For the sake of the time, I'd abstain from commenting
00:25:21    Steinar Grøtterød (At-Large):    Reacted to "For the sake of the ..." with 
00:26:50    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Thanks @Lutz Donnerhacke
00:29:17    Betty Fausta:    idem.
00:30:59    Claudia Ruiz - ICANN Org:    Michael P will not give an update today
00:31:45    Laura Margolis:    Can you please share the draft again?
00:34:54    Gerardo Martinez Hernandez:    Hi all
00:38:20    Alan Greenberg:    Olivier, Greg is here now, so we can do Closed Generics whenever you wish.
00:39:53    Sivasubramanian Muthusamy:    Does the policy stipulate guidelines on how variant names are registered?  For example, 1) does the person who registers name.com also gets name.variantcom and the person who registers name.com also get variantname,.com, and 3) if so is there a dual registration fee?
00:51:33    Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org:    To follow along with the RTT:  https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
00:56:20    Laura Margolis:    active ccTLDs contribute annually with ICANN
00:59:37    Alan Greenberg:    @Laura, Some do!
01:00:24    Steinar Grøtterød (At-Large):    Sorry - I have to leave the call. I will listen to the recording
01:00:25    Laura Margolis:    yes, with different amounts… some of them dont contribute also
01:08:46    Justine Chew:    Correct
01:09:18    Hadia Elminiawi:    Thank you Alan and Greg
01:11:49    Hadia Elminiawi:    we hear you well
01:13:11    Pari Esfandiari:    thank you all for excellent presentations. Unfortunately, I have to leave the call. I will listen to the recording.
01:14:43    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    If .québec is not a variant of .quebec then things are going to get interesting when accented TLDs are going to be applied for. IMHO ICANN is digging its own grave on this
01:15:42    Bill Jouris:    Replying to "If .québec is not a ..."

Only one of the places where the IDN has set us up for "interesting times"
01:15:55    Satish Babu:    Yes, the issue is not about just this one case...
01:16:03    Sivasubramanian M:    Quebec gets accented Quebec and name.quebec gets accentedname.quebec ???
01:17:00    Satish Babu:    @Siva, This is not an instance of variants (under current policy), but for variants, what you say is correct.
01:17:28    Satish Babu:    All permissible combinations of variants at first and second levels need to be supported.
01:19:01    Sivasubramanian M:    If registrant A has name.quebec and if the policy gives room for Registrant B or C to register name.accentedquebec or accentedname.quebec, then B or C has effectively hijacked the business of A
01:19:20    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    .Turkiye and .Türkiye
01:20:17    Satish Babu:    @Siva, that is covered by the "same entity constraint" whereby all allocatable variants are given to just one entity.
01:20:19    Sivasubramanian M:    @Satish. Accents have the same vulnerabilities / confusability
01:20:55    Satish Babu:    The decision on variants has been adopted as policy by the Latin Generation Panel (GP), which is an entity outside ICANN.
01:21:17    Satish Babu:    Whis is why GNSO is talking about a possible new EPDP to examine this situation.
01:21:44    Bill Jouris:    Replying to "The decision on vari..."

Having been on the Latin Generation Panel, we certainly thought we were inside ICANN
01:22:45    Bill Jouris:    Replying to "The decision on vari..."

We had ICANN staff working with us and everything
01:22:46    Satish Babu:    @Bill :-) There is of course of a lot of overlap between GPs, IPs and the ICANN community.
01:23:00    Sivasubramanian M:    Turkeye ought to be bundled FOR FREE with the turkiyewithaccent by Icann to registry.turkiye and in turn the second level names from the registry with or without a fee to the registrant
01:24:04    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Replying to "The decision on vari..."

https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/croscomlgrprocedure/pages/95520056/Generation+Panels
01:24:05    Satish Babu:    "Same entity" constraint ensures that only the original entity has the right to apply for the variant. It's blocked for everyone else.
01:24:14    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Replying to "The decision on vari..."

Looks like ICANN-run entities?
01:24:50    Satish Babu:    Of course, whether this is based on a fee or for free, is a registry-level decision perhaps (there is a fee to be paid to apply for the variants, based on a cost-recovery basis).
01:26:12    Bill Jouris:    Replying to "The decision on vari..."

Especially when, for example, ICANN was funding travel to in-person panel meetings.  ;-)
01:27:06    Satish Babu:    It's true that ICANN provides broad leadership to the entire process, but the info provided to us in the EPDP is that these groups are self-forming and self-dismantling.
01:28:13    Sivasubramanian Muthusamy:    Of course, whether this is based on a fee or for free, is a registry-level decision perhaps (there is a fee to be paid to apply for the variants, based on a cost-recovery basis).
I don't have rigid arguments about fee for the top level, it is good that the "same entry" constraint protects Registries, but does the policy stipulate that the "same entry" constraints percolates down to the second level for the benefit of the Registrants?
01:28:39    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Looks like the Latin LGR is going to have to be re-visited
01:28:51    mmoll:    It's weird -- accents in latin scripts do not exist. Seems like this needs to change
01:29:12    Bill Jouris:    I will speak to anyone about it.  Although *rant* is probably closer to it.
01:29:23    Satish Babu:    At the second level, "same entity" still applies, but slightly differently. Policy for the second level is being developed right now under the Phase 2 of EPDP on IDNs.
01:29:39    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    because clearly in some languages an accent makes a word both sound different and with a different meaning whilst in other languages the accented word is the same as the non accented word
01:30:20    mmoll:    I am starting to understand the frustration of my Quebec/Québec friends
01:30:50    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    So it looks like some more work is going to be needed in the Latin Character LGRs with more details on a per language basis - I am actually surprised that all languages using Latin based character set are batched in one set of rules
01:31:25    Sivasubramanian Muthusamy:    "but slightly differently" is vague, and it needs to be defined and sealed at the second level by phase2 with the same clarity as it is at the TLD level.
01:32:05    Greg Shatan:    I think the Latin Panel was the problem and we now have to work around the mess they made.
01:32:20    Satish Babu:    @Siva, there will be clarity on these details when the Phase 2 report is published.
01:34:07    Roberto Gaetano:    Replying to "because clearly in s..."

Actually (but this might be off topic for the discussion in hand, but will help understanding the complexity of problems where linguist have the expertise that may be lacking to the  ICANN community) there are cases where the word changes meaning moving the tonic accent without visible change in the written word - e.g. the italian “pesca” and “pesca”, different meaning if the first novel is closed or open.
01:34:57    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    I am sorry to say but the lack of clarity in this might only end with one conclusion: the failure of the IDN programme. Business are not going to engage in "adventures" like this
01:35:13    Greg Shatan:    Replying to "because clearly in s…"
@Roberto, sounds fishy to me.
01:36:29    Roberto Gaetano:    Replying to "because clearly in s..."

not sure what you mean, but we can take this offline
01:37:52    Hadia Elminiawi:    @Christopher Wilkinspon the presentation just before this one was in realtion to the IDN ccTLD and their variants.
01:38:14    mmoll:    Replying to "because clearly in s..."

Agree with Alan, onus is on the applicant. They will have to come up with a plan of some kind
01:39:07    mmoll:    Replying to "because clearly in s..."

It could in the form of surveys, consulting with possible users, etc.
01:39:13    Christopher Wilkinspon:    thus, in Catalan we have a single charachter that looks like this:  <l·l>
01:39:41    Hadia Elminiawi:    The two policies (ccNSO and gNSO) need to be consistenet
01:39:51    Laura Margolis:    Reacted to "The two policies (cc..." with 
01:41:49    Greg Shatan:    Aside from Latin characters, there are no scripts I know of that support a wide variety of discrete languages.
01:42:10    Roberto Gaetano:    Replying to "I am sorry to say bu..."

my personal opinion is that IDN is not just a technical issue, as it has been addressed by ICANN via UASG, but a cultural one, where you need other competences to properly deal with the issues. Multilingualism on the internet is a couple of orders of magnitude greater than a technical UA issue - I have tried to say this for years…
01:42:26    Satish Babu:    CJK languages, Arabic, Devnagari are examples of scripts that support multiple languages.
01:43:11    Roberto Gaetano:    Replying to "Aside from Latin cha..."

Arabic? Cyrillic?
01:43:26    mmoll:    Maybe we need a webinar on this specific topic -- what is and is not a variant and why and how to we fix it
01:43:49    mmoll:    Or at least, how might it be fixed
01:44:19    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    I am not in favour of *dropping* 3.5.4 but it is pretty hard to ask an applicant  to mitigate a structural problem that could introduce confusability to users
01:44:32    Justine Chew:    Replying to "I am not in favour o..."

okay
01:45:45    Hadia Elminiawi:    okay
01:45:52    Yrjo Lansipuro:    Cyrillic is used for Belarusian, Bulgarian, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Macedonian, Montenegrin, Russian, Serbian, Tajik (a dialect of Persian), Turkmen, Ukrainian, and Uzbek
01:45:53    Greg Shatan:    Apologies but I have a hard stop at the bottom of the hour (top of the hour in India).
01:46:31    Satish Babu:    Thanks, noted Greg.
01:47:00    Greg Shatan:    Thanks, Yrjo! I stand corrected and better informed.
01:47:42    Roberto Gaetano:    Replying to "Cyrillic is used for..."

…and of course there are cyrillic characters that are used in some of these languages but not in others… Real life is more complex than we sometimes think
01:47:51    Yrjo Lansipuro:    
01:48:26    Hadia Elminiawi:    The explanation provided must address the following factors: 3.5.4 Recognition that the applicant comprehends the requirement for registrant and registrar/reseller agreements to adhere to all domain name policies, including their responsibility to prevent potential confusion among end-users.
01:48:35    Hadia Elminiawi:    My suggestion
01:50:33    Justine Chew:    Please contact us if you have suggestion on how to massage the language on 3.5.4. Thank you!
01:50:57    Chokri Ben Romdhane:    Thank you all
01:50:59    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Thanks and later all.
01:51:06    Nthabiseng Pule:    Thank you everyone
01:51:06    mmoll:    Very open ended. There should be a specific requirement for making some investigations
01:51:18    Hadia Elminiawi:    Thank you all for your participation
01:51:23    Hadia Elminiawi:    see next week
01:51:37    Hadia Elminiawi:    see you next week
01:51:41    Hadia Elminiawi:    bye for now
01:52:09    Harold Arcos:    Thnks allí,,bye
01:52:15    Laura Margolis:    Thank you all! Bye
01:52:17    Roberto Gaetano:    bye all
01:52:20    Harold Arcos:    All