Zoom chat: 2024-05-22 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

00:15:57    Frank Anati:    Good evening
00:16:00    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Evening, afternoon morning all.
00:17:15    ALAC-Raihanath Gbadamassi:    Hello everyone
00:18:51    Michel TCHONANG CMR CAPDA:    Greeting from Cameroon
00:19:17    Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org:    To follow along with the RTT:  https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
00:24:37    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    The TPR-PDP recommendations can be found on: https://docs.google.com/document/d/137NjFpE9QslCXJzz5Ms0d8c10_L3xdMtCWCAz9dSduY/edit?usp=sharing
00:25:19    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    And we have also been regularly teken along through the development of this maerial
00:25:24    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    taken
00:25:38    Evan Leibovitch:    I'm fine with "no comment, we're good"
00:27:51    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    As you have been immersed in all this, that would be appreciated @Steinar Grøtterød
00:28:41    Evan Leibovitch:    computer glitch. Need to reboot.\
00:30:34    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    and the CAN  vs Can NOT  'live' with test is important at this stage.
00:30:41    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Reacted to "and the CAN  vs Can ..." with 
00:33:15    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    it was timely for review indeed
00:34:20    Hadia’s iPhone:    Hello all apologies for joining late
00:35:05    ALAC-Shah Rahman:    @Steinar Grøtterød is this review/ recommendation will be consider final one
00:35:16    Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org:    To follow along with the RTT:  https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
00:36:37    Steinar Grøtterød:    Replying to " @Steinar Grøtterød ..."

No. The objective is to identify - if any, CANNOT LIVE with recommendations. The “final” version will be ready in August 2024
00:37:16    ALAC-Shah Rahman:    Replying to " @Steinar Grøtterød ..."

Thank you,
00:41:57    Chokri Ben Romdhane:    Reacted to  @Steinar Grøtterød ... with "
00:47:41    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Couldn't AI be used to automatically check strings?
00:47:49    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    so easy
00:52:54    Frank Anati:    Reacted to Couldn't AI be used ... with "
00:53:21    avri doria:    can you count on AI not hallucinating?
00:53:41    Maureen Hilyard:    Reacted to "can you count on AI ..." with 
00:54:24    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "can you count on AI ..."

and where is the reliability tested on something that may learn within its own use  (when the consequences of being put into contention is significant
00:54:27    avri doria:    AI is still at a stage where it needed extensive verification.  might as well do it the old fashioned way until AI become dependable.
00:54:41    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "AI is still at a sta..."

SNAP
00:54:50    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Reacted to "AI is still at a sta..." with 
00:54:53    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    Replying to "AI is still at a sta..."

Of course, we're talking about a few years from now...
00:55:46    Maureen Hilyard:    Reacted to "AI is still at a sta..." with 
00:56:15    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    Replying to "AI is still at a sta..."

Could AI be used to do a first pass for evaluation since some folks seem opposed to community burden?
00:56:26    Chokri Ben Romdhane:    Reacted to AI is still at a sta... with "
00:57:17    avri doria:    Replying to "AI is still at a sta..."

Then NeRoNG II can use it but at this point need to decide on NeRoNG I
00:57:24    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    It seems like ICANN org is trying to create less work for itself by making the community deal with the problem. If there's no concern from the community then there's no problem. And the "community" is a very nebulous concept and much of it may be unaware that ICANN or the next round of New gTLDs even exists.
00:58:05    Alan Greenberg (ALAC):    We were burnt by the confusingly similar automation used in the 2012 round (and the PDP said to not use THAT mechanism again). As a result, we have shied away from ANY use of automation to make such judgements.
00:58:32    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Note this does not limit itself to only 'ICANN' Community but 'community' writ large
00:58:53    avri doria:    anyone within range.
00:59:17    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "Note this does not l..."

So inclusive of say GAC member (or not) Governments etc.,
00:59:58    Chokri Ben Romdhane:    Replying to "AI is still at a sta..." 

  totally agree that ...
01:00:12    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Replying to "AI is still at a sta..."

I've spent most of my afternoon going through the AWS AI offerings that were announced 3 weeks ago and that are now available for immediate subscription/set-up and I am flabbergasted to see what is there now. As in today. As in, Amazon is ready to put its name on the line for production-ready services. And they already say who's using them. Companies like Airbnb, Toyota, Lonely Planet, AT&T, BMW Group, AstraZeneca, 3M, Intuit, General Electric (GE) --- these are not small names and they are right into it. I cannot see why ICANN should not.
01:00:13    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

good point @Alan Greenberg (ALAC)
01:00:56    Alfredo Calderon - VSIG:    Reacted to "AI is still at a sta…" with 
01:01:39    Hadia’s iPhone:    Reacted to "I've spent most of m…" with 
01:01:51    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

2012 is a different world, Alan, If ICANN runs on 2012 technology, let's give up right now. Gotta wake up to the fact that we're in 2024.
01:02:09    Hadia’s iPhone:    Reacted to "2012 is a different …" with 
01:02:14    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

it's a trust matter @OCL
01:03:44    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

more stuff happens with AI already today than you can imagine. It's not just the "generative AI" which you read about in the newspaper. Already biomed research is so much AI.
01:04:03    Alan Greenberg (ALAC):    @OLivier, I am not disagreeing, but reporting what the current philosophy seems to be. When I explicitly asked by not some level of automation in the confusingly similar issue, I was told very clearly that the instruction in the PDP Report not to use to failed automation was interpreted as not to use ANY automation.
01:04:07    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

anyway - apologies, this is probably not the right location to discuss this. :-)
01:04:27    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

There's even talk of AI being used in Domaining and domain name generation.
01:04:30    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

true on both counts
01:05:20    avri doria:    Replying to "We were burnt by the..."

@Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond and it is verified and tested like nobody's business.
01:06:52    avri doria:    how are we doing on time?
01:07:45    Evan Leibovitch:    How soon do we have to provide feedback? I'd like some extra time to mull over.
01:08:29    Kathleen Scoggin (she/her):    Reacted to "How soon do we have ..." with 
01:09:13    Evan Leibovitch:    AI can assist and hasten the process but needs human verification.
01:09:25    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "AI can assist and ha..."

yup
01:09:38    ALAC-Bukola Oronti:    Reacted to "AI can assist and ha..." with 
01:10:10    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    Reacted to "AI can assist and ha..." with 
01:10:43    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    What's the Amazon service that uses actual people?
01:11:20    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Replying to "AI can assist and ha..."

AI and automation are problematic when dealing with how people will interpret or misinterpret these conflicts.
01:11:42    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Replying to "What's the Amazon se..."

Mechnical Turk.
01:11:53    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    Replying to "What's the Amazon se..."

Yes!
01:12:32    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    In French, that would be 'OTEL
01:12:51    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    Reacted to "In French, that woul..." with 
01:12:53    Gopal Tadepalli:    @Alan Greenberg (ALAC) Thank you. Software is not a panacea but today we have crisper boundary conditions and limitations than way back in 2008. We can have the Software flag to say "Verifier Team" based on some metrics. Otherwise, the "Verifier Team" will be a bottleneck. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
01:13:04    Alberto Soto:    Dear, I have to leave the call, I have another meeting. Thanks!!
01:13:26    Evan Leibovitch:    Replying to "What's the Amazon se..." 

 You know that they o...
01:14:14    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    The queue is closed after Sébastien
01:14:49    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Replying to "What's the Amazon se..."

There was a proposal on the Domain Name Market list to have resellers identified by Mechanical Turk. It would have been a complete disaster because of the way that they are interconnected and often intentionally obscured. The MT approach would be worse than an automated or AI approach.
01:15:20    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Single term then an unabiguios one
01:15:23    avri doria:    the Reporter?
01:15:31    avri doria:    The Alerter?
01:16:03    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    requesting that the possibility for contention is investigated
01:17:06    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "requesting that the ..."

A term that is *not* a term of art in ICANN though
01:17:30    Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org:    Closing the poll in 15 seconds
01:17:31    Evan Leibovitch:    I just want another few days. I'll add my comments (if any) in the email list.
01:19:05    ALAC-Bukola Oronti:    Thank you Justine
01:21:02    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    I tend to get worried when I see strawmen solutions proposed as they can easily crash and burn.
01:21:57    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    Don't think I CAN appreciate Justine any more than I do!
01:21:57    Hadia’s iPhone:    Thank you Justine
01:21:59    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Extra ordinary effort this week
01:22:05    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Thanks Justine.
01:22:08    Hadia’s iPhone:    Thank you Cheryl
01:22:09    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Reacted to "Don't think I CAN ap..." with 
01:22:17    Hadia’s iPhone:    Reacted to "Extra ordinary effor…" with 
01:22:24    ALAC-Shah Rahman:    Reacted to "Don't think I CAN ap..." with 
01:22:31    avri doria:    IRT is one of the best accountability mechanisms ICANN has, in my opinion.
01:22:59    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "IRT is one of the be..."

This one has been an excellent exercise and YES I agree
01:23:59    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Surveys take time to respond to
01:24:33    avri doria:    personally I hate them and try to  never respond to surveys
01:25:15    Gopal Tadepalli:    @Alan Greenberg (ALAC) An example of a Pluralization Software with Manual provisions built into is at: https://www.applanga.com/docs/advanced-features/pluralization#:~:text=Applanga%20supports%20pluralization%20which%20accommodates%20different%20plural%20rules%20across%20languages.
01:25:34    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    Indeed
01:27:05    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    No GIP as far as I know
01:27:58    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    As was I and it IS time to review :-)  We should engage
01:28:47    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Makes sense @Alan Greenberg (ALAC)  perhaps add some fresh people in addition to Justine  so we spread the knowledge base
01:29:57    Hadia’s iPhone:    Reacted to "Makes sense @Alan Gr…" with 
01:30:10    ALAC-Bukola Oronti:    Reacted to "Makes sense @Alan Gr..." with 
01:30:13    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    some of us were probably only 12 years old when these processes were designed. :-)
01:30:27    ALAC-Bukola Oronti:    Reacted to "some of us were prob..." with 
01:30:30    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Reacted to "some of us were prob..." with 
01:30:47    ALAC-Shah Rahman:    Reacted to "some of us were prob..." with 
01:30:48    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Replying to "some of us were prob..."

Very true actually @OCL  but NOT you ;-)
01:31:36    Andrew Chen - ICANN Org:    PPSAI Call for Volunteers: https://www.icann.org/en/announcements/details/icann-seeks-volunteers-for-the-ppsai-implementation-review-team-20-05-2024-en
01:31:56    ALAC-Shah Rahman:    Reacted to "PPSAI Call for Volun..." with 
01:32:01    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    but IRTs post PDPs are a very important mechanism  SO if you were engaged in the PDP  consider
01:32:13    Greg Shatan:    Include me pls
01:33:25    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    there is a flow chart to deal with it in fact
01:34:34    Andrew Chen - ICANN Org:    To join the IRT as a participant, please email irt-rsvp@icann.org with the subject line "PPSAI Policy Implementation Review Team candidate" by 31 May 2024. Please cc staff@atlarge.icann.org
01:34:46    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Again a mix of fresh and experience will be of use in the IRT as long as the criteria for volunteers does not exclude anyone
01:34:56    ALAC-Shah Rahman:    Reacted to "Again a mix of fresh..." with 
01:35:12    Frederic Taes (ISOC Belgium):    Reacted to "Again a mix of fresh..." with 
01:35:44    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    has to be dealt with
01:36:29    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    The impact of GDPR was a complete mess. Now, NIS-2 is even trying to undo some of that mess because the European Commission may have realized that complete WHOIS privacy was stupid.
01:37:16    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond:    history history… amazing that they realise things afterwards...
01:37:21    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    the communication and outreach plan
01:37:51    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Some of us pointed out what the effects of these laws would be. :)
01:38:21    avri doria:    it will be a lot of fun discussion.
01:38:44    Andrew Chen - ICANN Org:    Next Round Engagement and Outreach Plan: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/download/attachments/112200465/New%20gTLD%20Program%20-%20Engagement%20%26%20Outreach%20Plan%20-%2014%20May%202024.docx.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1715878769000&api=v2
01:38:56    Gopal Tadepalli:    Suggestion: The more generic we are from ICANN on the idea of "Multi - Lingual" [i.e no limitation on the number of languages in this set] the better it is. UN perforce factors [perhaps correctly so] many other considerations that need be strict limitations for ICANN work. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
01:40:58    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    the TPs are completed already
01:41:03    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Hopefully the African DNS market study will finally be published and discussed. The MEAC study contract doesn't even seem to have been awarded yet.
01:41:48    Andrew Chen - ICANN Org:    HLGM Schedule: https://hlgmkigali.sched.com/
01:42:25    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Been trying to find out about the MEAC study for months. I'll probably have to publish the data on the MEAC market including historical market data.
01:43:38    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Ironically the MEAC study may have been a victim of the GDRP madness due to it being nearly impossible to measure the market using WHOIS data.
01:43:47    Laura Margolis:    No one runs the show like you @Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
01:43:55    Judith Hellerstein:    Also we will have transcription that day
01:43:58    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Skip it
01:44:06    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    and yes the rotation is an issue
01:45:00    Muriel ALAPINI:    Reacted to "No one runs the show..." with 
01:45:05    Judith Hellerstein:    I agree
01:45:13    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    That would be great, Avri. Thank you!
01:45:14    Betty Fausta:    Reacted to No one runs the show... with "
01:45:20    Kathleen Scoggin (she/her):    +1 to that!
01:45:25    Steinar Grøtterød:    Thanks!
01:45:27    ALAC-Shah Rahman:    Thank you all
01:45:45    ALAC-Pari Esfandiari:    Thank you everyone.
01:46:06    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    Bye for now then
01:46:07    Denise Hochbaum:    Good meeting! Thank you all!
01:46:09    ALAC-Jonathan Zuck:    thanks all!
01:46:19    Judith Hellerstein:    The rotation tells us it is a morning time
01:46:23    Michel TCHONANG CMR CAPDA:    Ok thank Olivier
01:46:25    Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org:    Thanks. All
01:46:28    Cheryl Langdon-Orr:    OCL  did his thing
01:46:29    Gopal Tadepalli:    Thank you all.
01:46:33    Daphne Ekpe:    Thank you all
01:46:36    ALAC-Bukola Oronti:    Thank you all
01:46:39    Laura Margolis:    Thank you ALL!
01:46:40    John McCormac - HosterStats.com:    Thanks and later all.
01:46:41    Betty Fausta:    Tks bye all
01:46:43    Alfredo Calderon - VSIG:    Bye!
01:46:44    Evan Leibovitch:    Thanks. Bye!
01:46:45    Michel TCHONANG CMR CAPDA:    Bye bye all!
01:46:47    Maureen Hilyard:    Bye