AC Chat: 2019-02-13 Consolidated Policy Working Group Call

 Yesim Nazlar: (2/13/2019 06:06) Welcome to the At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG) Call taking place on Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 13:00 UTC
      Yesim Nazlar: (06:06) Agenda: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/BP7vBQ
      Evin Erdoğdu: (06:50) Hello all, welcome.
      SALYOU FANNY 2: (06:53) Hello Evin,Thank you.
      Joanna Kulesza: (06:55) hi all:)
      Harold Arcos: (06:57) Hi all, 
      Alfredo Calderon: (06:58) Hola a todos! / Hello to all!
      Harold Arcos: (06:58) Saludos @Alfredo! y Ed!
      Alfredo Calderon: (06:58) Saludos Harold. ¿Cómo está la situación en Venezuela?
      Harold Arcos: (07:00) más tranquilo,,manteniendo la cotidianidad,,trabajando, horas pico,,inflación disparada,,,por su parte mucha discusión en Redes,,you konw :)
      Evin Erdoğdu: (07:00) Hola a todos :)
      Harold Arcos: (07:01) Hi @Evin!
      Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (07:01) Big snow storm here,  took one hour to clear the snow, i want to go back to bed
      Maureen Hilyard: (07:01) Hi all - just on audio and chat and leaving for Auction Proceeds meeting at top fthe hour
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:01) Perfect 
      Gordon Chillcott: (07:01) Much better, yes
      judith hellerstein: (07:01) hi Evin, I have to leave at 9am for auction proceeds so if I can go before 9am I would be grateful
      Alan Greenberg: (07:01) Sorry for echo.
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:01) Hello all
      Alan Greenberg: (07:02) @Maureen, you may want to change those plans...
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:02) Yes
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:02) we hear you
      judith hellerstein: (07:02) we can her you
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:02) ahh the mute gremlins 
      judith hellerstein: (07:04) all I have to leave at the top of the hour for auction proceeds 
      Evin Erdoğdu: (07:04) @Judith noted, thank you
      judith hellerstein: (07:06) @evin that would work for me to discuss the 2 year draft then
      judith hellerstein: (07:06) that is Friday 
      sergio salinas porto LACRALO: (07:07) HI ALL
      sergio salinas porto LACRALO: (07:07) @Staff please call me at +5492235215819
      Alfredo Calderon: (07:08) @Judith, yes it's Friday. Just in case we do not finish discussion today.
      judith hellerstein: (07:08) @alfrdo
      Yesim Nazlar: (07:08) we're dialing out to you Sergio
      sergio salinas porto LACRALO: (07:09) @Yesim Thanks Im in call
      judith hellerstein: (07:09) @alfredo I have to leave t the top of the hour for auction proceeds so will miss the chance to talk about the 2 year budget policy comment
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:09) final(ish) Report
      Justine Chew: (07:09) The amount of emails flying in and out on EPDP is close to dumb-founding
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:09) Yes Correct Alan
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:10)  and then on the 21st and in March
      A-Eduardo Diaz: (07:11) Is this being recorded?
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:11) we might have EPDP meetings on 19 & 20 February depending on the need
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:13) the meetings would be to settle on the issues that were brought up during the quite period 
      Maria Korniiets: (07:14) Sorry for late
      Evin Erdoğdu: (07:14) @Eduardo this call will have audio recording, and the presentation is attached to the agenda: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/BP7vBQ
      A-Eduardo Diaz: (07:15) Why no recording the AC. There is veruy good info here.
      avri doria: (07:16) Is the period of transition limited to a year or so? so after that time they do have to comply with the new policy?
      Yesim Nazlar: (07:17) @Eduardo: The slide deck is available on wiki agenda page 
      Reina Granados - NI: (07:18) spanish audio?
      Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond: (07:18) thinking about it now, since this is nearly a Webinar as such, it might have been a good idea to record the AC room itself with Alan's slides
      Yesim Nazlar: (07:18) @Reina: you need to be on ADIGO channel 1738 for Spanish audio
      Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond: (07:18) I note that the ALAC is not here in full swing.
      sergio salinas porto LACRALO: (07:18) se escucha bien!
      Yesim Nazlar: (07:18) please let me know if you need a dial-out 
      Harold Arcos: (07:19) ES channel is ok
      Alfredo Calderon: (07:19) @Evin and @Yesim, even though audio is being recorded and slide deck is avalible it would be great to sync both in a single file.
      Yesim Nazlar: (07:19) @Harold: Thanks for confirming 
      Alfredo Calderon: (07:19) @Evin and @Yesim, just an idea!
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:20) So "we can oppose, but it will not automatically stop it" is our own brexit situation here? (Despite the fact, we didn't start the fire)
      Harold Arcos: (07:20) you are welcome @Yesim
      Reina Granados - NI: (07:20) @Yasin ...how can I do that
      Reina Granados - NI: (07:20) ?
      Yesim Nazlar: (07:22) @Reina: Please share your phone number with me  - you can do it pver private chat
      Alfredo Calderon: (07:23) +1 on @Glenn's approach. It would send a could message from ALAC as an Advissory Committee to the Board.
      sergio salinas porto LACRALO: (07:23) @Reina, pon tu telefono aca para que @Ye4sim te llame en el canal en español
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:23) I believe supporting the consensus and still make the concerns we hold for Phase 2 clearly known and noted is the best way forward Alan, that seems to be in the comfort zone for you and @Hadia 
      Holly Raiche: (07:24) Agree with CLO's approach
      Reina Granados - NI: (07:24) +50583892099
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:24) the risk otherwise is to actually minimise our influence in phase 2 otherwise
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:25) Agreed @Alan
      Yesim Nazlar: (07:25) dialing out to you Reina on ES
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:26) @cheryl correct we tend to be with joining consensus  and putting forward a statement with our concerns
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:27) Yes @Hadia that I thought was what I was clear about supporting (I hope that is clear now(
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:27) oppsign will gain nothing
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:27) 29th February 2020 is  the complying date
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:29) the GNSO will still deliberate and vote with or without the AC influence beying other than "noted"  in my opinion  the pressure on the GNSO is to eficiently and effectivly rum this process through to a timely conclusion, correct @Alan
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:30) our * concerns will be noted*  but the GNSO is going to vote
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:31) YES   support the overall package and NOTE any Concerns  it that plain enough
      Holly Raiche: (07:31) It is too early - we need to first go through the issues so my suggestion is to support consensus but, depending on the rest of the issues raised in this meeting, possibly strongly state opposition to specific issues
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:31) you need to have what influence you can FOR Phase 2
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:32) as @Hadia is currently and clearly articulating
      Alfredo Calderon: (07:32) @Glenn, As we move forward I would support the consensus, but make clear those items we have some concerns.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:32) Personally I think, the only solution is to drop the "centralized data model" at all. Using a "ultra thin whois" would provide a path to really solve the legal issues. But this is minor view. So I'd reject the overall package.
      Holly Raiche: (07:33) Let's get on with the actual issues before we agree on our response
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:33) In the abstract supporting  consensus is always preferable. But this is not a typical outcome.
      Maureen Hilyard: (07:34) I agree with others about supporting the package unless there are some issues that we absolutely don't agree with - as has been suggested by others
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:34) @Olivier we sort of have an idea 
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:34) I have been following this EPDP as an Observer and I am deeply troubled by the outcome.
      Alfredo Calderon: (07:34) 34 minutes in the Call and still waiting to hear about the actual issues we agree and those where we have concerns.
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:34) but we do have the precedent of what has been seen over the years of what actual influence 'hold out (minarity) positions have had' within a voting GNSO 
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:35) THAT is biasing my input here 
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:35) I would advise wariness before supporting consensus. At least weigh the issues.
      A-Eduardo Diaz: (07:36) @Grec: when you say outcome what do mean with that? Do you mean outcome as if there is going to be concensus or not or soemthing else.
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:36) @Greg can you flag the mian concerns that you have
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:36) I don't suggest walking blindfolded #Greg
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:36) “Resistance is Futile” is not a sufficient reason to join consensus.
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:37) I have about a dozen significant concerns....
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:38) the use of storngly noting COncerns and flagging future intentions for phase 2 is not I believe rolling over and dying in a ditch @Greg  (and do remember how 'The Borg; were in fact "managed" ;-) 
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:38) @greg please post them or email
      Evin Erdoğdu: (07:39) At-Large Workspace: EPDP Final Report for CPWG Discussion: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/alacpolicydev/pages/102661435/At-Large+Workspace+EPDP+Final+Report
      Holly Raiche: (07:40) I thouoght everyone was on the 2013 RAA?
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:40) thank you evin
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:40) My overall concern is that the EPDP has failed to maintain existing consensus consensus policy while complying with GDPR. it’s gone way overboard.
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:41) @Holly correct but that does not mean that the field has necessary been updated
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:41) to maintain the metaphone @Greg the GDPR has become quite the 'black hole' indeed
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:41) I think phase 1 is a mess as it stands. it’s very nearly a funeral pyre for useful Whois.
      Holly Raiche: (07:42) @ Hadia - thanks.  I thought that all the 2013 RAA rquirements would have been met!
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:42) Many fields have  been killed or made optional (with a bad definition of optional).
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:42) @Greg you are correct but the charter never said to maintain the current WHOIS to the greatest extent possible while complying with the GDPR
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:43) Or all fields are just 
      Christopher Wilkinson: (07:43) Joined late. Apologies; too much going on here.  CW
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:43) the same or worse hyjacked by other than the registrant
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:44) Geographic and natural/legal distinctions have landed badly. These are critical to avoid a “global GDPR” beyond the limits of the real GDPR.
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:46) @Hadia, I don’t believe the EPDP was given a license to dynamite any policy that stood in its way.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:46) Asking whois.iana.org responds with the contractual information and a pointer to the whois server of the contractor. If we consider this scheme extended ... we now ask the registry server and get contract information and a reference of the whois server of the registrar ... once again the reseller ... the customer. Everything at each point according to the local law. And we *have* information about the chain of responsibility.
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:47) Restraint is or should be an overall mantra for policy change.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:47) Current state is: Public whois is "empty", IP lawyers and LEA have access to anything.
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:49) @Alan yes but the regsitrar can simply notify the third party
      Tijani BEN JEMAA: (07:49) Sorry, I have to drop in 5 min
      A-Eduardo Diaz: (07:50) It will never happen if there is no timeline
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:50) This is revolutionary. And it’s not our revolution. As those who benefit from a useful Whois, we are closer to being victims. So why join the crowd?
      Andrea Glandon: (07:51) Finding the line
      Greg Shatan 2: (07:52) LEA has access through other means and GDPR provisions private parties don’t have. Security and threat, IP owners, etc. effectively have access to nothing.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:52) IBTD
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (07:55) @greg you are correct but phase II is supposed to fix this - but I get your points and indeed these points make perfect sense 
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:55) indeed @Hadia Phase 2 is critical on several remaining issues
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:56) We *need* a whois as thin as possible. Thick whois is the cause of all evil we suffer now
      Greg Shatan: (07:57) Putting faith in Phase 2 given the outcome of Phase 1 at this point is scary too me.
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (07:57) indeed @Greg bit also why we need to be as effective and influential as we can be *in* that phase
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:58) Thick whois throws the legal issues at ICANN. Thin whois throws the work to the registrars.
      judith hellerstein: (07:58) hi all. I have to drop off now to go to auction proceeds call.
      Greg Shatan: (07:58) @Luc, I strongly disagree though I can’t see the evil you cite.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (07:58) Gre
      Greg Shatan: (07:59) Thick throws it to the registries not ICANN.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (08:00) Greg: Thick whois means, that the personal data is transfered out of the legal area of the registrant to those of the registry. And the Registry has a contract with ICANN which tells them to keep a WHOIS. Hence ICANN is urging the registry to break local law of the registrant
      Greg Shatan: (08:02) I disagree with your legal analysis, and I have been doing a lot of GDPR work in “real life.” Data can be transferred in compliance with GDPR. this is a bogeyman.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (08:02) OTOH if ICANN urge the registry to publish the registrar contract in the whois and point to the registrar whois ... no such data transfer is necessary any more
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:02) I am concerned on behalf of Registrants
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (08:03) Greg: IBTD. It's very difficult to do it correctly for all areas in the world.
      Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:04) Presentation as a EBOOK
      Glenn McKnight-NARALO: (08:04) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__online.fliphtml5.com_gnel_soue_&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=k7uKdjSb7_ZjItyVqrCYHo_rKms9SFxlmbYEJqG-y9I&m=068Qk2_iwgukqdG6MR9snJzFIlbJDxtXfDro5EMdByA&s=Eid0AUSgsrrSQ7BZ9narDQM1kjMyH8YDqtOAeSEZkx8&e=
      Greg Shatan: (08:07) Following the rules is not that difficult.
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:07)  in one case I had a clients (Registrant of several Domain Names for <10 years at the time) take so long to get incorrect Whois information entered by Registrar during business sale that we rectified it *finally* when the NEXT takeover happened... and you don't want to know how long as a "Reseller" I personally worked on that I can tell you ;-)
      sergio salinas porto LACRALO 2: (08:08) Im dropped
      Yesim Nazlar: (08:09) dialing back to you Sergio 
      sergio salinas porto LACRALO 2: (08:10) thanks dear @Yesim
      Yesim Nazlar: (08:10) de nada!
      Greg Shatan: (08:11) I must go. Courage!!
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:11) noted @Greg
      Evin Erdoğdu: (08:13) OCTO: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_octo&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=k7uKdjSb7_ZjItyVqrCYHo_rKms9SFxlmbYEJqG-y9I&m=068Qk2_iwgukqdG6MR9snJzFIlbJDxtXfDro5EMdByA&s=M4R500GjiV-kz-VekqZ5uCEIv-1Tg07a4CwA45hOtL8&e=
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:18) thank you Evin
      Marita Moll: (08:20) I would also support articulating our concerns but supporting in general. 
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:21) I have not changed from Agree with consensus and STRONGLY note our concerns so we *may* maximise any effect in Pghase 2
      Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond: (08:21) is it an "all or nothing" support or no support position, or can we just support/not support on a per issue basis?
      A-Eduardo Diaz: (08:21) IF there is more that 50% fo issues that we do not support, then we can not reach consensus. Otherwise, consensus with strong message. 
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:22) I would think that a Ratification from the ALAC would actually be beneficial but be based on the bottom up process this group has gone through (which has been noteby extensive and fullsome IMO)
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:22) to answere @Alans additional question re ALAC specifically
      Justine Chew: (08:24) Yep, lobby the Board to prioritise public interest angle.
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:24) Yep correct Alan
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:24) unless the recommendation on no geographic differentiation is amended  we could decide not to support it 
      Holly Raiche: (08:26) @ Alan - maybe circulate a statement that we can look at - support but we object to ... including lack of consideraton of issues impacting on users
      Justine Chew: (08:26) I don't understand how we could support the whole package if we have major concerns with parts of it.
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:28) @Alan correct the issue is about the importance of the topic to end users 
      A-Eduardo Diaz: (08:31) If ALAV is going to vote on this, I recommend that this presenttation is given to the ALAC before voting. The issues are complex and no everyone understand the implications of some of them..
      Marita Moll: (08:31)  I think Alan's summary would be quite effective. In the end , we need to move forward
      Justine Chew: (08:31) @Alan, I agree with what you said in expressing concerns but I would favour WITHDRAWING consensus for package.
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:32) HUGE amount actually achaived here people  do remember that
      A-Eduardo Diaz: (08:32) Thnak you Alan and HAdia for such a great job and sumarry.
      Lutz Donnerhacke: (08:32) Thank Alan!
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:32) and endless thanks to our EPDP Team especially  we in CPWG just support the process
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:33) There are still time critical issues not EPDP to look iver
      Cheryl Langdon-Orr (@CLO3): (08:33) talk on my Saturday then
      Kaili Kan: (08:33) Bye!
      Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC): (08:33) bye all
      Alfredo Calderon: (08:33) Bye.
      Amrita: (08:33) Thank you 
      avri doria: (08:33) bye
      Evin Erdoğdu: (08:33) Thank you all!
      Gordon Chillcott: (08:33) Thanks and bye for now.
      Maria Korniiets: (08:33) Thank you everyone)
      SALYOU FANNY: (08:33) Thank you,Bye;
      Harold Arcos: (08:34) thanks Paula & Claudia,,,thanks all