Transcript 22 December 2009 NOWG

Tijani Ben Jemaa: I will begin by a review of the proposal that I have drafted and I have results from Heidi. So you have the link to the project that you want. It was an outreach event and at the last call we decided to do a capacity building operation and (inaudible). For the capacity building operation, as most of you know, the AFRALO general assembly (inaudible) ALAC African involved in the ICANN process. We try to know why the distribution was like that and we decided it was because we cannot (inaudible) huge volumes of information and activities of ICANN. And this is because they didn't get the basic information and the basic knowledge about the ICANN structure and ICANN mission and ICANN activities.

(Inaudible) African ALSs will not be involved in the ICANN anymore if we continue like that. And we thought that we have to do something to change this situation. The idea was to organize in Nairobi since Nairobi is an African (inaudible), to organize a Nairobi event in which we build our capacity building program to (inaudible) simplified and very (inaudible) information and knowledge about ICANN structure, ICANN mission, ICANN activities, etc.

So this is the original discussion. I thought about this program and I proposed a format. But we discussed on the last working group call, and I am committed to drafting a new version of this program.

The conditions of this capacity building program will be as follows. In the morning of the six days of the Nairobi ICANN meeting, we will try to give the ALS representatives the knowledge that I spoke of before, the basic knowledge, simplified and (inaudible) to enable them to understand this program. And why we do this in the morning because we want them to follow in the remaining part of that day all the new things of ICANN so that they will see what was spoke about in the morning, they will see on the ground during the meeting. This is the way which it will be organized. That's what I propose it will be like. Which is from Monday to Friday. So Sunday as opposed to the whole day session to do (inaudible) presentation on ICANN structure and mission.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Tijani, sorry, Cheryl here. I'm – I suspect I'm speaking on behalf of most of us on the call when I'm indicating, and I've done my best via Heidi directory with Adigo to see if we can improve the quality of our ability to hear you. The suggestion is that if you were to disconnect and Adigo was to call back to you, that may improve the call quality. Would you mind terribly if we did that? Because I'm very aware that it's quite difficult for some of us to hear what you're saying.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: So Tijani, if you would disconnect and Adigo will dial out to you. And we'll see if we've got a better connection. Okay?

Tricia Drakes: I think he is gone. But hopefully he'll come back.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Well, yes, otherwise it will be most unfortunate.

Tricia Drakes: While we're waiting, one question, and I might be a bit stupid, so I'll ask it before he comes back. On the list of the 20 ALSs, a lot of the people there are actually very knowledgeable about ICANN. Most of the time (inaudible) basically (inaudible) ICANN or that they're there to learn, because if they're there to learn, some of them are actually are very familiar with (inaudible).

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Well of course some of them belong to me of course. Quite directly they're my ALAC and regional leaders as well.

Tricia Drakes: That's right. I was just thinking, looking at the list (inaudible) or they're involved in other things. Is that whether or not in terms of the group that – I mean which, how many of the 20 are not really engaged in any way? (Inaudible).

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I'd really prefer the African leadership to answer those particular questions directly. But in preparation for that I will also, and I'll use the term warn you all, and I'm using that decisively, that I've also seen discussion where they would like to think that they could possibly bring more than one person from an ALS or each of the ALSs along. This presents huge logistical and to say nothing of cost and gaining of possible partnerships and funding issue for the project. And that's something that I'm hoping we will be able to discuss in a full frank and (inaudible) way with the African leadership today. Because there's little time to do things and a great deal to do if any of it can indeed be done.

Tricia Drakes: Okay, I said it was just general because I think it's prudent to do that. cross talk

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I'd like to preempt something that may not have been clear from what Tijani was outlining to you all. And that is at our last work group meeting, we were all quite clear that anything that is done is in no way in duplication, but rather in synchrony or consonant with what is going on with the fellowship program. So when I pointed out that the morning activities as proposed in the current outreach project emulated what was going on with the fellowship project, it seemed imminently sensible to all of us that should the logistics be possible to put another 20 people in the fellowship room to go through their morning activities would be a foul wise use of resources. That's the level of discussion that we're at –

Tricia Drakes: That's helpful background to me because I'm (inaudible) for the first time. These are questions helpful to understand. (Inaudible).

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Not a problem, Tricia. We appreciate that. The other thing I suppose between our last meeting and this is that we are now aware of who has been successful to become sponsored travelers under the fellowship program. And indeed I'll let Teresa speak to that, but talking to Mandy or Heidi, it's quite obvious that none of our current ALSs are going to be beneficiaries of that particular program. So it would be a matter of expanding numbers in some existing spaces rather than saying, well we've already got those numbers covered elsewhere. And I guess that brings us very much to some of the room meeting and logistical challenges which is why both Nancy and Nick Thomaso are on the call. I think in principal, just filling in space until Tijani's return, we all agree that outreach public participation –

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, I am now connected on the other line.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Excellent. And my dear man, we can hear you perfectly. The chair is yours. Back to you, dear.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, I hear you, too.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Excellent. All right. Back to your agenda then, Tijani.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Okay, so what did you say, Cheryl? Because it was cut when you were speaking.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I was just explaining to Tricia and to Jean-Jacques and our assembled staff from ICANN that we were in no where suggesting that we are in competition with fellowship activities, that in fact we would be utilizing the program that fellowship was going to be running, but that of course has some logistical issues in terms of room allocation, space. I also noted that none of our ALSs from African region were recipients of fellowship sponsorship for travel. So that anyone that we are successful in getting funding for is going to be additional, not covered in someone else's listing. And the final matter which you may not have been on the call for, was Tricia Drakes asked when she looked at the list of representatives of the 20 At-Large structures within African Region, she noted quite a few of them who are in fact quite experienced and very knowledgeable in the world of ICANN. And of course they would be in less need of the basic 101 principles and asked were they going to act as mentors, as supporters, as peer educators in the program. I think that covered it. If not, someone else on the call will bring me to order, I'm sure.

Teresa: Can I just ask – hi, this is Teresa. Unfortunately I'm going to have to drop off shortly, but I think what would be helpful is for Anne Rochelle also to touch upon what actually has and is occurring in the region in preparation of this meeting in particular. The engagement with the different entities. And some clarifications and either Mandy or Anne Rochelle can speak to this, on where the fellowship program is targeted and where – and we've been certainly in discussions with the ALAC staff on this, the financial support for the ALAC participation that's under a separate budget area as many are aware.

I certainly appreciate the opportunity to try to leverage things and I'm a big fan of if we've already got activities going, how can we best gain synergy and coordinate on those things? So I think that's an important thing. But I'm also very cognizant that we have some clarification on what is already going on quite well, what we can do better, and in light of sort of this initiative here, how to move it forward in a way that we can efficiently and effectively use the resources that are available to us. And then look towards partnerships in other areas to strengthen that. So I'll just leave that as sort of my premise for the call because engagement and participation is a very wide area and we're trying very hard to make sure that we're coordinating on that quite closely.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Indeed. The coordination is one of the major reasons that the African leadership came to have you all on this call because we certainly don't need to duplicate, to trip over, or to compete with what different parts of what the one organization is we're all purporting to represent are doing. And particularly of great concern to me would be something that was going to be an outreach activity that wasn't hand in glove with whatever global partnerships we're doing in the region. And of course we also need to be very aware of what our potential partners and other players in the local Internet ecosystem are doing as well. And you'll notice most of those are listed as possible partners and funders, perhaps as much for the partner and awareness raising exercise as any possible funding. Is Anne Rochelle on the call?

Anne Rochelle: I am here.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Excellent. The snows have allowed you to get here. Very good.

Dave Kissoondoyal: Cheryl, can I just add one point, please?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Go ahead, Dave, but of course Tijani is the Chair.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, go ahead, Dave.

Dave Kissoondoyal: Yes, after the intervention of Cheryl about the ALS who are experienced ones, those who do not need like the capacity building program, but the project plan that we are presenting, it is split in two parts. One part is the outreach project where we are targeting like we want to have the maximum presence within Africa to come to know the ALAC structure in ICANN. So I think that those ALSs who are already experienced ones, these resources can be used for the outreach project rather than the capacity building one.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Hello, Fatimata on board. I was waiting, waiting, waiting. But I couldn't get through, I don't know why.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Welcome, Fatimata. So please.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Fatimata, they did try to dial out to you, so it sounds like some of the telecommunication challenges that we know your country is often faced with has held you up again today. Tijani has led us through items one and the pathway through item two on your agenda.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And perhaps it would be good if Fatimata knew who was on the call. Clearly I'm on the call. Cheryl from ALAC as ALAC Chair and giving whatever assistance we can to this regional project.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Thank you.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Can we do a quick roll call please?

Tricia Drakes: Tricia Drakes.

Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Jean-Jacques Subrenat.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Tijani Ben Jemaa.

Dave Kissoondoyal: Dave Kissoondoyal.

Vanda Scartezini: Vanda.

Anne Rochelle: Anne Rochelle.

Mandy Carver: Mandy Carver.

Nick Thorne: Nick Thorne.

Nick Ashton Hart: Nick Ashton Hart.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Oh, you two Nicks just have to be separated, there's nothing else for it.

Nick Thomaso: Nick Thomaso.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And we also had Nancy on the call as well. I don't think we've lost Nancy, she might just be muted. So Fatimata, you have just about everyone you ever wanted to speak to in terms of support for this project.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Thank you very much for being here. I'm just trying to get online to remember the agenda. So you said point two?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Went through point two, correct.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes. Do we know the ALSs which have benefited from the scholarship?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: That would be none of them. That's a very simple answer. Not a one.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: I sent an e-mail, Fatimata.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: There's no scholarship for one of us? I know from my NGO there is none.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: That is correct.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: And do you know why?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Perhaps Mandy Carver would be more appropriate to direct that question to. Mandy, you're on the call?

Mandy Carver: I am on the call. The selection process is done by, not done by (inaudible), it's done by an independent selection committee. And they weight various factors in looking at the applications. We do prioritize applicants from the region and fully 50% of the fellowships have gone to people from Africa. I do want to say that of the list of proposed attendees for your capacity building program, only I believe three, there may have been four that actually applied, the rest did not. So of those four that applied, of the 119 applications that we had for just 25 slots, they were not selected. There were, as I said, there were 14 coming from Africa and then we try and have some geographic diversity. So there will be two from each of the other regions with the exception of the Caribbean that is only sending one. And the selection criteria is based on what the interest level expressed by the individuals, what they say they want to do with the fellowship, the topic areas they want to cover. There are a variety of factors that they look at. But I can't tell you the individual reasoning of each of the five members of the selection committee because they get the entire dossier, they review the applications, and they assign a rank order. And then we calculate the total score and we get a list and then we allocate slots by geographic region. As I said, weighting those most heavily that are from the region or the adjacent regions where the meeting is going to be held.

We took absolutely everyone from Africa that scored high enough to qualify. Those applications were not scored high enough by the selection committee to qualify for fellowship.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay. So I guess now we have to wait for –

Mandy Carver: And as I said, they all didn't apply, so it was a very small subset of the people you've listed as attendees for the Nairobi program. The rest did not actually submit applications.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I think which echoes the rationale put forward to us by the AFRALO leadership (inaudible) brought forward the potential need for running something in terms of At-Large structure capacity building that we do need vastly better engagement. So I think that's sort of exemplifying our need. And Tricia, perhaps responding back to your point where you looked down the list and saw considerable expertise, that considerable expertise is of cause pretty well occupied in the activity and leadership roles we see. It's the rest that we need to encourage, bring up to speed, and insure –

Tricia Drakes: Yes, well some of them are not. I mean some of them are not, may have been in the past actually, but they are presently on committees or doing things.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes, and we need to insure that they are actively engaged, not simply occupying space.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, that's right.

Tricia Drakes: And also they could actually, on the basis of peers, having peers, it could be very helpful if there is an event. But some of them as I say are very knowledgeable on ICANN as well as other Internet related things. So they may not be there this time because they may not be on a committee or a project that would give them the funding.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes, indeed. It's that devil in the details particularly when we get to the dollar that makes all the difference.

Tricia Drakes: Even given the target of doing specific things if they are going to be there. But just as I said, in looking at the list, there all some who could be there to contribute as much as to learn. And that's again, understanding more of the objectives and all of those things as well.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I'm wondering, Fatimata, you missed that part of the earlier conversation that Tricia raised while Tijani was chairing, just to reiterate what Tricia is referring to here, is the opportunity for whatever may be able to happen in terms of the capacity building and planning and the content development, the project. We could perhaps utilize more knowledgeable African representatives as peer teachers or mentors through some of the process as well. So passing on of knowledge of more active and experienced members is one way that we could perhaps design our desired outcomes.

I'm a little bit aware that we're hijacking Fatimata's organized agenda, but I do have one question that is relevant to the conversation Mandy was just having with Fatimata and that is, do we know or is it possible to get, or is it that we've got it and I just haven't seen it, which is equally possible at the moment, a breakdown of the affiliations of those African domiciled fellowships recipients? So how many of them are CCNSO, government, or how many can we possibly encourage to become future At-Large structures I guess is my question.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes. Under fellowship (inaudible) published on the 18th, there is no information regarding the affiliation. But perhaps people in the fellowship program can give us this information.

Mandy Carver: Yes, we can give you a breakdown by how the individuals identify themselves. Whether they say they're academic or government or business or whatever. So we can certainly – once they said that yes, they're accepting the fellowships, we can get you that information because it will be posted. But in the meantime we can certainly give you the aggregated information that we have six people that self identify as whatever category they put themselves in. We also ask the fellowship applicants to tell us what their areas of interest are. So in the one hand, when they're applying they're telling us why they're interested in coming to an ICANN meeting and what their areas of interest would be. Then once we know who's accepted the fellowship, they'll be surveyed and asked what the most pressing topics are for them. And that's actually how we design the fellowship program for each meeting. So we will have a better sense in the next few weeks what the topic areas are. And we'll be able to say in other words what those sessions are going to be each day during the conference.

Anne Rochelle: Mandy, it's Anne Rochelle. If I can add one more thing, that from the fellowship, we actually have ten people from governments, eight from civil society, four from academia, and three from user groups. So that's aggregate numbers of people that we have right now on the fellowship program.

Mandy Carver: Right.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: So there is eight from civil society, so we have to find people from this eight people?

Mandy Carver: What we can do is give you that information from the Africa region because that's the total breakdown, that's the information for those who were selected for the Nairobi meeting, that's everybody. Of the 26 selected, one of which was an automatic deferral because of visa problems.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: So we look forward to perhaps early/mid January having the metrics on the 14 fellows who are representing the region of Africa?

Mandy Carver: Yes.

Unidentified Speaker: Tijani, I sent you the African list actually. I sent the names on the African list.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes.

Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Hello, could I pose a question? Thank you. This question would be to Tijani or Fatimata or Cheryl or others. It's sort of somewhat upstream from this subject we are discussing exactly now, but it's related. Someone mentioned a few minutes ago the selection committee. I just want to make sure, and of course I am speaking only on my own behalf and not representing any sentiment of the board of directors of ICANN. Just for my own information, has this always been seen as a very fair and, in terms of governance, effective way of doing things? Have there been in the recent past any questions about the validity of the choice of this committee or that's not a problem? I just want to clear the table, take this away. If it's not a problem then someone should tell me.

Vanda Scartezini: This is Vanda. May I respond this?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Go ahead, Vanda.

Vanda Scartezini: Well I am a member from the fellowship program since it began. We have been making a lot of (inaudible) and checking all the ideas since the beginning. In the beginning we decide first you focus on government people in the developing countries. We encourage them to come to the GAC and participation in their countries. Afterwards we decide to open up and to start to bring people from the CCs, to join the CCs because they needed to be more informed about the facilities others have and exchange of software and so on. And nowadays we are focused on all those in last priorities and also in organizations, universities, and even small companies that are more involved with like ISBs or something like that in small and underdeveloped countries.

That's the general idea. And each time we selected the people comparing also the index from United Nations about the human development in those countries. So that's the way we work on that and that mostly focus on which region we are. And so those regions have some priorities in from the other regions to make more, to give more opportunities for the locals in that region to go and at the same time, make it more less expensive. And once it's less expensive, we can send more people for that meeting. So that's the way we normally do. And that was my last time selecting people in this occasion. I put a lot of effort to put more people from Africa. Of course there are some people that have no meaning to sense for those meetings because they are not involved in their country with anything about the Internet. So it has no meaning to do that. But all the others I believe we can put in the sense of Nairobi in this occasion.

Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Thank you so much, Vanda.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Cheryl here, just if I may, I'm concerned that we've left Jean-Jacques slightly hanging in response to his question. I want to make it very clear, I have heard no indication from our regional, any of our regions, that there is any dissatisfaction in any way, shape or form with how the excellent fellowship process, selection process goes on. I think what we can and all of us, ranging from (inaudible) to your leadership in public participation, Jean-Jacques, and of course Vanda's and Tricia's ongoing passion with fellowship. And indeed with the need to work smarter between our At-Large structures and our regional networks and what's going on with the regional offices of the global partnership within ICANN. If we perhaps could look at being a little bit more proactive and a little bit more advanced planning in the future, I do think that we would all recognize that we are missing opportunities by being so busy and not doing early enough prior planning to better leverage our opportunities.

Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Thank you very much, Cheryl, that was very useful. And thank you also Vanda. Simply as a board member, and I underline once again that I am speaking only for myself, I am not mandated to say anything on behalf of the board on this. But of course I do have the preoccupation that we are not discovering something which is dysfunctioning or functioning badly, but you reassure me that the process is fine, there's nothing wrong with the process. Okay, so that's what I wanted to know, thanks very much.

Vanda Scartezini: Okay, just adding something, each one sends report to the fellowship program after they left and that is our (inaudible) group, Jean-Jacques, and they keep contact with us all the time and most of them it's a rather part of ALAC, ALSs, and so on because hey found they can continue to participate. But we certainly are checking and Janice, that's the staff in charge of this, has a very detailed profile of everybody and everything. Probably Janice could send more detailing information to the board, just some information to keep them aware that things are going well.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Fatimata, I’m wondering if we might be able to move onto some of the logistical issues. And while we're doing that, remember that I just want to make sure you were aware, before you were able to join the call, Fatimata, Teresa Swinehart was on the call and did ask – she had to leave – and did ask Anne Rochelle to specifically speak to some of the activities that global partnership is doing in the region already.

Anne Rochelle: This is Anne Rochelle. I'm not too sure if it was really addressed in some of the stuff that I’m doing in the region. It was mostly to talk about some of the things that are happening in Nairobi. And there are quite a few meetings planned already. Meetings apart from the main ICANN meeting. And what we're trying to do, trying to coordinate all of that to also see that people are not putting things basically together that would require for somebody to be in one place and be in another one at the same time. The KANIC, PK, and AFPLD are going to have a meeting, and IROC, which is an Initial Registry Operations Course and they are hoping quite a few of the TCTLB members, so this will be five days before the ICANN meeting. There will be other meetings planned I think – let me see, the GAT may be doing something for their people a day before. Let me see. I'm trying to find an e-mail where I sent some of the information to Nick Thomaso. I'm sorry, I just arrived home. I tried getting out of here for the past few days.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Considering you've been snowed in and stopped by every known form of land and air transport in the last few days, I'm surprised you can find your computer.

Anne Rochelle: Yes, well I was fortunate to have it around me because I'm not too sure about the rest of my luggage anyway. So the GAT, the EFTLD, of course the regular[ CCNFO] training the first day. Where did I put this one? Nick, are you around? Can you help me with that list of meetings that I sent you sometime? When was it? I think it was when I was in India.

Nick Thomaso: Yes, Anne Rochelle, I'm here and I just – I'm looking for the notes that you have sent me recently.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Perhaps just while that's happening, Anne Rochelle, I think what we need to insure is that whatever the African regional activities are that they're aware of what is going on and they're an integral pat of this larger scale planning. Not just on the logistics that of course Nick and Nancy have to deal with, but to insure that we're not trying to spread people into different meetings at the same time.

Anne Rochelle: Yes. And the main issue here is really trying to not only have your meeting, but make sure that it's not colliding with any of the others, that people would have time. That like the board members or any of the staff that you want to come talk to these people that they would be available at the time. Because some of us have already naturally of course committed to for example the fellowship program. And this is one more thing where we're going to try and see, depending on how many people you guys are going to have, how Janice will be able to accommodate people. If it will be possible, how possible would that be, not to mention also the program.

As Mandy said, the program, the fellowship committee is done, will be set probably by end of January. Because what we do is that we do ask the people. There are some who are interested in certain areas particularly. We're trying to give an overview, but at the same time, we'll try to make sure that what brings people is talked about there. So hopefully those will be subjects also that will be of interest to ALAC people.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Indeed. Can I just ask then whilst – I'm aware of our time constraints that many of us have today. If Fatimata of Tijani could establish a clear communication point with you to insure what their work group is doing is kept in the communications loop and vice versa with you. Should that be directly with you, Anne Rochelle? What's the best way forward for them on that?

Anne Rochelle: I think that's good going forward and then I can always relate with Mandy and Nick, make sure we see where we're going. But if you can at least copy myself, Nick I think, and Mandy, that will be great.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Fatimata, your view?

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes. Thank you, Anne Rochelle. I'd like also to talk to you about the possibility of having more people through AfriNIC and other sponsors. We would like, and therefore would like to discuss with you the kind of program that they would support. This is why I wanted you to see the draft that Tijani made and we're discussing it, and to have your input. We know that there are other workshops organized by ICANN and those workshops would be interesting for us, too. And see which part of those workshops that are already organized, we would not have to include in ours. So we would like to see, not to do some overlapping. And just make it interesting for new ALSs, for the ALSs that would be able to attend, provided that we have sponsors to do so. So these are the main two points we wanted you to be involved. Using your network to have more sponsors mainly to AfriNIC or Francophone of course, and also any other funding sources we can tap on.

Anne Rochelle: If I have to be very honest, Fatimata, right now Francophone is having a little bit of trouble. I was told they don't have anybody for Nairobi. And AfriNIC already trying to organize what we call the AFRs to take them to (inaudible) for the Heads of States meeting where they're trying to have a big booth and represent all the African Internet community for the Heads of State meeting in end of January. So those two forces to be truthful for March are going to be I think let's say practically impossible.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Can we work on a regional proposal to be submitted to Telcos or to the regulatory agencies like AITP from here and stuff like that? Just maybe selecting a list of people who would like them to support, region wide I mean.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Who did you say?

Fatimata Seye Sylla: I said can we work on a proposal to submit to – from regional perspective to be submitted to regulatory agencies? We know there are structures that have money in our countries. If you can't get it from Francophone or any other bilateral or metropolitan development agencies, I mean can't we try to see if we can get something – it would be at national level, but I would like to see this as a regional proposal supported by all of us.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: You're talking specifically I gather, Fatimata about the Telco regulators and the Telco operators in the various countries, is that correct?

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And if that was to happen, quite clearly, Anne Rochelle, that is something that would need to happen hand in glove with guidance and input from global partnership because what we don't want is individuals having a scattergun approach. We also want to make sure that any proposal gets to the right desk, not the wrong desk. And that's the sort of expertise that would be very useful in kind and actual support from the experts within the world of ICANN staff and particularly yourself in the region.

Anne Rochelle: And it would be as a follow up of the AfriNIC activities, because I think AfriNIC is very well now supported mainly by my country I can say on this. And they do a good job. And I think if they support the project, that will have a better impact.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I'm very aware cross talk. Go ahead.

Unidentified Speaker: (Inaudible) so he can be your (inaudible)?

Anne Rochelle: Look, I'm happy to give you names of people or places to take the proposal, but this is not – what we have is not a proposal, guys. This is a concept paper.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: No, we don't have – that's right what you're saying.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: That's where we need to hit next.

Anne Rochelle: And if – can Mandy also give us an idea? Because honestly I was checking some of the numbers, I saw something about $150 for rooms right now in Nairobi. That is really not the case. They are about $240 right now.

Unidentified Speaker: Tat's correct. When I saw the proposal, even the airfare – these are – we're seeing much higher rates and they're climbing. But at least – the one thing I can tell you is the cheapest hotel rates we've been able to find are $230 to $240 a night. We don't see anything that's $150. So the estimates also have to be revised upwards.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Okay.

Unidentified Speaker: And as we get closer to the meeting, the hotels, the airfare, everybody is going to raise their rates as they see demand going up. It's the nature of the way that industry does their business.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: So some of our assumptions, Tijani, I think need some overhaul based on the advice that we're hearing today. It would appear to me that it's easier to use realistic numbers which certainly Mandy has access to and make sure that we keep modifying as this data that she has changes. We need to be very aware of that.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Okay. I am not aware of the real prices in Nairobi but I don't know in Africa in general we can find a good hotel at $150. That's why I proposed this rate.

Nick Thomaso: This is Nick Thomaso, may I –

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, Nick.

Nick Thomaso: I believe that you'll find that most of the types of hotels that we traditionally use for ICANN meetings, the Hiltons, the Heads of Continentals, etc., are ranging anywhere from about $210 to $310, depending on which property we look at. I believe you are correct in assuming you can find hotel rooms in Nairobi for less money, but they would not be the mainstream hotels that we traditionally use.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes.

Unidentified Speaker: And when it's like that, Tijani, you have to think about shuttling people and all the logistics that go with that because if it's outside the main perimeter of the center of Nairobi, then there is some more money that has to be counted into the logistics of that, shuttling people back and forth and all of that.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: You are right.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Perhaps this is an ideal time to hear about those logistics and that of course is something that Nick – Nick Thomaso, I hate having to use full names, but it's necessary. cross talk. Perhaps it's an opportune time, with Fatimata's permission, for you to share some of the specific logistical challenges we may be faced with.

Nick Thomaso: It's – I have read the proposal and I do have a question on – two very specific questions. How many people will be in this program? How many are in the fellows program? And are these sessions that are in item two on the outreach program description still active in what we're trying to accomplish here? And item number two suggests that there will be meetings organized Monday through Friday from 7:00 AM to 9:00 AM to allow ALS representatives to participate in the ICANN meetings. And then one full day, Sunday, dedicated to overall presentations. Is that still what you would like to have or you envision?

Tijani Ben Jemaa: I think that is the best way to give the maximum information and knowledge in this short time. And the best way also to make people actually relate, to make people digest this information. These morning sessions, two hours long sessions followed by the meeting attended by the fellows is a good way to make people digest the information we have. But Sunday will be a very important day because it will give them the very essential knowledge they need.

Nick Thomaso: So I see that you're proposing that the Monday through Friday sessions take place from 7:00 AM to 9:00 AM in what is traditionally called the ALAC room, where the Ad Hoc meetings take place. And that would precipitate a 9:30 start to the ALAC meetings. So is – Cheryl, are you in agreement with that start time?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: No. Let me explain my very glib no a little more detailed. First of all, ALAC doesn't meet first thing on every day. On our Wednesday and quite often a good part of our Thursday, and of course on the Monday we are devoting ourselves, the start of the day, to the mainstream activities of the ICANN meeting. So whatever is proposed for the capacity building projects in AFRALO region would have to finish at a time that allowed them to be an integral part of all of those activities. So I'm unsure what other use, on those days that we don't have a booked meeting, you might be making in what's traditionally known as the ALAC room. The other thing is of course, we need to be aware that when this program was put together, we were not aware of how many people may also be part of fellowship. If the fellowship program meets a number of these basic needs, and we won't know that until mid January, then we may in fact have a hybrid model where a number of our participants would be directly involved in an activity that's being presented to the whole of fellowship. And I guess my question back to you would be, depending on what sort of room you're organizing to the ALACs, Nick, would that be a more appropriate space to bring in another 25 fellowship people rather than trying to fit in 25 more into whatever room you're allocating to the fellowship? I'm just not sure. You might need to switch to suit which topic is going to be drawing the bigger audience.

The other point I have is on the Sunday. And that's the one I have my major problem with. We use our Sunday for our ALAC and regional leaders one day workshop. And if the ALAC room was going to be devoted to this regional activity, we have a clear clash for around eight hours.

Nick Thomaso: So I guess to try to circle around this, I think that we could find an additional room for the ALS meeting that would not be in the ALAC room on Sunday. I'm not overly concerned with that. We've been looking at the floor plans while we've been on the call, Nancy and I, and I think we've come up with some solutions to that. The thing I still don't know is, how many people are we talking about? Is it 20? Is it 50? Is it some subset of that?

Tijani Ben Jemaa: May I answer?

Nick Thomaso: Please, yes.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Our proposal has two options depending on the funding resources. So if we manage to have two people per ALS, we will have 40 people as trainees, but 5 people staff, trainers, etc. If we don't have sufficient resources, we can do it, we can run it with only one person per ALS and it will be 20 trainees plus five people for staff and training, etc.

Nick Thomaso: Okay, that is very good information to have, thank you. And I ask a question out of naïveté, and I'm not trying to lead this in any particular way, but are there some meetings or sessions that might be appropriate for both fellows and ALS participants that we might want to combine the two?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: We hope so, but it depends on what the fellowship program is.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes. I proposed in this proposal, I proposed to cooperate with the program people. My intention is to communicate with Janice for this portion. If it is possible to marry both sessions, because if we look at the content, the agenda, we will see that we are not far – we do more or less the same thing. And perhaps we have more emphasis on certain points and we'll do that in a split session. But if we can reach an agreement with the fellowship program people, we can marry both sessions for most of the morning sessions so that you will have only one room, only one facility, and only one trainer.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: That would be great.

Mandy Carver: If I may, the only other issue I want to raise, I see in your proposal that interpretation is also requested. That does have an impact also on the size of the room because you've got to have the space for the interpreters and the equipment. And that is not something that the fellowship program has. We don't provide it given our finances. So for those sessions that are of joint interest, we're talking about, it sounds as if, going from maybe a room that might hold 25 or 30 to a room that needs to accommodate 50 or 60, depending on how many people you're bringing in so that there's also room for those interpreters, too. And so, Nick Thomaso, that is another – I don't know how you're allocating spaces along that and where Christine is talking about equipment setup.

Nick Thomaso: Yes, that's a very good point and it is – I'm not recommending by the way that we combine the two. I just heard it I believe in conversation and thought that if that were the case, we might in fact be outgrowing the room that we're thinking about. Also of course there are additional funding requirements for interpretation that we'll have to consider.

Mandy Carver: And let me just say from the fellowship program that we are always happy to leverage resources. If we can get the space and there are people interested in those programs, absolutely they are welcome to join. And as I said, as soon as we have the responses back from the fellows and we've communicated with the speakers, we'll know what the program looks like.

Nick Thomaso: Thanks, Mandy.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Cheryl here, can I just jump in on that? I think the matter of these areas of topic that has huge pulling power for the audience we're talking about and would be best dealt with in a real time interpretation environment, that's an ideal opportunity for us to use the ALAC room resources for such an event because that's exactly the type of space and equipment that we already have provided for.

Tricia Drakes: Can I just make one observation? Again, it might just be one that's completely off course, but it might be helpful before going too far down any path. The issue is the fellowship program, and I'm obviously a big supporter of it, I'm not (inaudible) of that, but there is a culture, an objective for relating to the fellowship program that perhaps is different than the objectives for the ALS meeting. So those kind of topics might be similar. I think one has to be mindful of – and when I say culture, I mean people culture, of the objectives of both the fellowship program but also with what we're looking to do with the ALSs for Africa. And probably neither would benefit if it – like I say, it might be a silly comment, but just mentioning.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Point well made, Tricia. I think what's important is there are complementary opportunities to share resources and topics of discussion. It would be wise and fiscally responsible of us to do exactly that.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: You're right.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Just on what Tricia was just saying, it struck me, and I suppose I'm putting on my ALAC Chair hat very firmly here and getting slightly defensive about my Sunday, where I would very much as we run open meeting encourage and like to have African participants from of course the ALSs, but also from those interested out of the fellowship program, to join in our policy development discussions and our methodology, some of what we're needing to do in terms of outreach and implementation of the ALAC Review Plan where we're bringing in more individual voices, etc., etc. Again, to be dealt with on Sunday. And that seems to me to be perhaps another opportunity where we could integrate these activities again. But I'm also a little concerned that what we're going to be doing is educating them, putting people in the deep end and asking them to swim on the Sunday and then giving them their basic education through the week afterwards. So we're sort of giving them the swimming lesson after we've thrown them in the water. We might need to think a little bit between now and what I'm going to suggest is an early or probably mid January follow up call on this when there's more information from the fellowship program in terms of the metrics of affiliation and also what their program is going to be looking like. And where the African work group has had a better chance to explore and develop what is a thumbnail sketch into a slightly more meaningful draft proposal which we can then look towards discussing more fully at that meeting in terms of something we could take to new funders.

I'm wondering if we might want to consider, rather than a one day as Tijani has put in the regional outline, perhaps a couple of half days, one as a beginning and one as an end. And if that's the case, we may look towards perhaps using even a part of the Sunday in the ALAC room for these activities which again would help us reduce costs and provide the logistics that Nick's outlined in terms of room and capacity sizes aren't going to be too difficult to manage. Can I ask also, if I may, on the logistics, Nick, one of the things that the African region is very keen to do is to have some form of showcase event. A little bit of a show and tell of what their existing At-Large structures do in their local communities and of course in the world of ICANN. That's going to take some logistical planning as well and it is of course possible that that might be married up with a fellowship activity. If that's the case then that's going to be offsite. Because I gather everything closes at 6:00 or 6:30 at the conference center?

Nick Thomaso: Yes, things do wrap up early at the conference center.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Perhaps you could share with the African leadership that we have on the call some of those specific logistics including I gather an earlier start time for the main –

Nick Thomaso: I'm sorry, repeat that, there was a –

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I thought there was also going to be an earlier start time for the main ICANN meeting?

Nick Thomaso: That is – I am not aware of that, although we have been starting sessions earlier historically. For instance the opening ceremony started at 8:30 this year and the – I believe the public forum also started earlier this year, in Seoul I should say.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes, so if that happens again, and with a hard stop at whatever it is, 6:00 or 6:30 in the evening, that's I suspect going to be more likely, we need to perhaps make sure technical difficulty.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: I'm not hearing anything.

Nick Thomaso: Yes, much background noise. I lost that last sentence as well.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: To work with our local host, with the meeting local host is going to be important.

Nick Thomaso: Yes. We are working very closely with KINAC and others in Nairobi in running the ICANN meeting. Is that the local host that you're referring to or is there someone else?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: That's correct, Nick, that's what I'm referring to.

Nick Thomaso: Yes, that will not be an issue. We are in lock step on these topics, so we will certainly coordinate any other activities that are happening to be sure that the timing is correct.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Great. This is Fatimata. I think the planning we have here might be too much for the attendees. Everyday from 7:00 to 9:00, I think we might think this over again and see how we can make it less constraining for people. Because I think otherwise we won't get the results we are aiming at. So maybe as Cheryl suggested, maybe two sessions or three sessions.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: That is something, Fatimata, that we can look towards having a set of discussion choices or points.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: For this outline, I'll see what we can do about it.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: We can discuss it if you want. I do think it is the minimum. It is only two hours a day and it's not too much I think. And we need to give them, each country representative of ICANN to be presented with its mission and its program and its activities. And I think it's not too much. We have a lot of content and you will see, but we will not be having very, very long time to play in this program. It will be full and it will be useful, very useful. This I want to tell you that this program, all this program is done because we want the African ALSs to participate in the future. And if you want them to participate they have to understand, they have to be aware, they have to get the basic knowledge. And that's why I think we have to give them everything.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: I agree, Tijani, but the number of hours will be ten hours and I think if you can even have (inaudible), the thing, I mean my worry is about having them every day from 7:00 to 9:00. That's all. I'm not questioning the number of hours, I think the number of hours is correct.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: We – Fatimata, we experimented with the fellowship program and it's very useful, very good. I think it's a genuous idea to do it in this way because in the morning you are fresh, you can get the information, and don't forget that during this session, morning session, there is the presentation and there is the question and answers. So it's interactive. It's not hazy. You understand? It's not hazy.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Tijani, I agree with you, but what about the scholarship, the scholarship program? We will have some overlapping. We'll talk about this. We will be exchanging e-mails.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: We do need to look at that and look at a number of ways of devising the necessary time. And in ways that also fit with the particular logistics. For example, can I ask, Nick, how early will the shuttles be running? Where are our people, assuming we get funding for them, likely to be housed? In a space and place close enough that the same shuttles taking fellowship people to the event is going to be able to picking up – there's a whole lot of other logistics which I think Fatimata and Tijani you need to have an awareness of and part of that is going to be dependent on what the fellowship program looks like anyway. I think it needs to be flexible.

Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Cheryl?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes.

Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Just before you asked Nick to go into that, I'd like to ask forgiveness. I will be leaving the call now. And I'm glad that it's shaping up and I want to send my best wishes to all of the organizers and hope that it will work with the help of all of those who are on the call this evening.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you very much.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you, Jean-Jacques. It's all about trying to get better public participation which is where your influence would be an impact.

Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Thank you. Well influence I don't know, but I find it interesting, and I'm heartened to see that there was clear talking. I appreciated for instance what was said about 20 minutes ago by one of the participants saying, look guys, you are no where near this. And she got the thing right on track saying very concrete things about hotel prices and flight prices and all that. And that's the kind of thing we really need to hear more often getting us back to reality. Otherwise things don't happen. So in any case, many thanks to you all for inviting me on this call and I wish you really all the best for the success of this outreach in Nairobi.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you, Jean-Jacques. So, Nick, I suspect my question is still hanging with you about – and our may not have all the answers yet, but there have been pieces of information that the work group needs to consider.

Nick Thomaso: Yes, you're correct, I don't have all the answers yet. But let me tell you what I do know. We have been preparing to run shuttle buses to the downtown hotels beginning at about 6:30 in the morning, understanding that there are certain activities that traditionally started at ICANN meetings as early as 7:00 and 7:30. We are in fact – this is not your typical ICANN meeting in that typical for me is that we're in a convention center. So the – what we're going to be able to do at the convention center will be somewhat different than what you can do in a hotel. All of that said, I think the message I want to leave you with is that in theory, I support this activity. Based on the numbers that I see, I believe that we'll be able to accommodate it, but I think there are some issues that we really need to address.

The first, someone raised the issue of starting everyday at 7:00 am five days a week. Frankly I tend to agree that is a bit much to ask of people to show up everyday at 7:00. Just from a logistics point of view and what the body can handle and what you can absorb over that course of time. There are certain meetings that are likely to start earlier in the morning as has been happening recently, certainly earlier than 9:00. I see the Monday through Friday pattern of 7:00 AM to 9:00 AM somewhat suspect of the first reason I stated.

And then the second reason, which is the opening ceremony may start as early as 8:30 as it did in Seoul, and public forum will probably start early as well. So I just think the message here is that there's more work to be done in defining what this meeting is and how many – or this set of meetings is. And then understanding how many people will be attending. There will be some incremental expenses associated with it, especially in the way of translation if that is truly a requirement. And we'll work to help you with budgets as you decide what shape and form these sets of meetings are going to take.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Fatimata? Have we lost Fatimata?

Matthias Langenegger: Cheryl, it's Matthias. Yes, we just lost Fatimata.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: In which case then that incredible silence where I assumed she would thank you for you input, Nick, can be filled by me and I'll thank you for that info.

Nick Thomaso: I was wondering if I had said something totally inappropriate.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: No, I think you're just getting a very definite introduction to the wonderful Telco world that we're going to be dealing with in this meeting. So I live in fear of our remote participation stability. However.

Nick Thomaso: Yes, I've had some personal experience having been there twice now.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes. Tijani, until Fatimata comes back on to the call, where would you like to take this meeting?

Fatimata Seye Sylla: I'm back. I'm back.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Oh, well done, that was very quick.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: This time, yes.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay, so back to you, Fatimata. Where do you want to take this meeting next, which is probably close to its winding up its next steps I'd like to think.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay, I think the next step as you said, we were discussing online about the timing and stuff like that. But we need to work on the draft proposal to the Telco regulators and we'll need the proposal to be supported by AfriNIC. Anne Rochelle, do you think that's possible? You said yes, right?

Anne Rochelle: Fatimata, I can't talk on behalf of (inaudible), so you would have to ask him.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay. We can talk to AfriNIC, to (inaudible)?

Anne Rochelle: Yes.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay. And do you think of another organization would approach for a lot of support? But I think AfriNIC would be a good support.

Anne Rochelle: Well, look, I said you can ask IDL, but I was actually thinking that one of you guys would take the burden of getting their organization as the main let's say docking point for this program. And if the others are all supporting you and you're having their say in there, that's the organization, that organization would be the one taking the proposal out there to different sponsors.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes, there's no doubt for that. I just wanted this to be a regional – I just wanted us to have a regional approach, that's why I was thinking that way.

Anne Rochelle: And that's – it's fine to have one of you guys in the name of everybody else.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes, I agree.

Anne Rochelle: We've done that before. You have ALSs in Kenya, you have (inaudible), there is (inaudible).

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes, that's what I just saw on the list. There's no ALS in Kenya.

Anne Rochelle: I thought Kenya was one of your ALS, no?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: No, it's not, and it may be that that is going to have a greater benefit if we work under the advice of the local host. So Alice, we have outreach to Alice and she's away until I think the 5th or 6th of January.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay, well I mean then try with either (inaudible) or (inaudible) in the name of the different ALSs. And get how do you call it, an official letter, all ALSs or AFRALO members.

Anne Rochelle: AFRALO, I think AFRALO.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Seeing we're supporting one of the ALSs to be basically the leader on this.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Anne Rochelle, let me put on my ISOC hat for a moment. I would encourage rather than a scattergun approach to individual ISOC chapters, a first step needs to be a specific reaching out in conversation with the ISOC regional manager, (inaudible) needs to be involved I think as soon as possible in this process. And Lourde has done me the courtesy of giving an introduction now on this topic, so I'm happy to pass that on to whomever is going to hold the pen on these tings. And it should be one name or one writer with two signatures, but I think we need to insure that it is perhaps Fatimata and Tijani who are in control and things are only coming from a single source. I'm very aware of – for example Dave has already written to Lynn (inaudible). Well that's all very nice, but we're working directly with the region and I'm sure Lynn's fascinated with the invitation, but she's going to pass straight back down to where we started with. And we don't need to have too much of that happening. And I think it needs to be under the control of the leadership of the African regional At-Large organization. With our guidance and support. cross talk. If you need it, I will pass that e-mail onto you. I'll pass it onto the work group.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Again, I have –

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Now I gather that a number of people will have to leave the call now, Fatimata, so –

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay, yes. So I think the two main points we'll have to do, the first one will be to have the proposal and to submit it. Then under the name of AFRALO we approach AfriNIC anyways. And also the other regulatory bodies in our respective countries.

Dave Kissoondoyal: Fatimata, Dave here. Okay, once you send the proposal to AfriNIC I can talk to (inaudible)

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Dave, is that Dave?

Dave Kissoondoyal: Yes, it's Dave here. Once you write the proposal to AfriNIC, I can go do the follow up in (inaudible). So I can do the follow up over here.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay, thank you. Anne Rochelle, we will share the proposal with you. You're not going to run away from us.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I doubt that cross talk

Fatimata Seye Sylla: We want to have your input. Let's see if I have your country – there's no ALS from Niger either.

Anne Rochelle: There's no ALS from where?

Fatimata Seye Sylla: From Niger.

Anne Rochelle: You know the volunteer work is kind of hard. Everybody has a day job.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Mainly right now.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Oh, Anne Rochelle, I do hope you're not indicating that those of us who are on this call don't have a day job. It's probably time to retreat very gracefully to your next meeting I would suggest.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes, that's what I was going to suggest, too. Tijani?

Tijani Ben Jemaa: May I say something? I think that the most important effort to do now is to find the financial resources and I see that we are focusing on AfriNIC. AfriNIC is very good and I hope that AfriNIC tries to help us. But we need alternative proposal for the financial support because if there is no money, no program, no outreach, nothing will be done.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: No workshop.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: It's very, very important to work very strongly on this point and perhaps to designate, to appoint people to be in charge of these points, specific points.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Tijani, this is why we're thinking about the regulation bodies in our countries and other assorted because we'll still be contacting Francophone and all the others we mentioned But we're just trying to diversify the funding sources. But we are not just going to AfriNIC. We want to have AfriNIC with us. Whether they will fund for us from their own budget, I doubt it, but we still want to have them because they are our original buddy regarding Internet governance.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: I understand. But what about ISOC for example?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: As I suggested, the regional director of ISOC needs to be brought into the conversation at this point.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, I do think so.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Yes.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I've already had conversations at the headquarters level. There is no funding.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: There's not?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Not from at the headquarters level. So we need to look at what may or may not be already planned and may or may not be already possible within the regional outreach activities that are going on.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay. So when would be our next meeting? This weekend is not good. Next week?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I think your next point will need to be sometime at the end of the first week or the beginning of the second week of January because we know that Alice from the local host won't be back until then. And we also need to make sure that we have better knowledge about what the planning will be for the fellowship so that can fit into your specific plan outline and proposal because we need to have those much more expanded plans before you can go and approach a potential funder. What you might want to do between now and then though is consider what type of information and put some drafts together so that we can put up a web presence for people to go and have a look at all of this in a slightly more friendly way than trolling through the WIKI system that we're using at the moment. And perhaps Matthias might be in a position, or Gisella might be in a position to assist us with that a little later.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Good, very good. I have another suggestion. Can you please, everyone, when you receive the proposal, can you please react on it so that we can have all the discussions under the main list and then when we come to the teleconference we will be more effective and more efficient as well. Because if we think during the teleconference it will not be very efficient. We have to think before. So when someone do a proposal, please everyone, try to react to this proposal.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay, Tijani.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I hope your ideal is matched with actual outcomes, Tijani, but we can try.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay, so let's find a date for the next – it maybe won't be a fixed date, but at least which week? The week of –

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Second week of January.

Heidi Ullrich: This is Heidi. I think that the second week of January might be a good time. I believe Alice is back on the 6th, so mid week, mid month January. We can send a doodle out for that.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Thank you.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, okay.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Okay? So I think for me that's all. Is there any other business? No?

Tijani Ben Jemaa: I have to thank Heidi because she took the time to look at the proposal and to give comments and it was very useful comments. So thank you, Heidi, thank you.

Heidi Ullrich You're very welcome, Tijani.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: So I want to thank you all. Thank you Anne Rochelle, thank you for taking the time to join us. Thank you, Vanda.

Vanda Scartezini: Thank you for you, too, and wonderful season and everybody has the best from 2010.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: Thank you very much. And to all of you, thank you. Cheryl, thank you. Nick is still here?

Nick Thomaso: Several of us.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr: We've got more Nicks than we can poke a stick at, Fatimata.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: We've got to put money in a bag and then (inaudible) sponsor at least one. So thank you very much for your support. Thank you.

Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you, everybody who joined us and tried to help us.

Fatimata Seye Sylla: To all of you, thank you very much. And Merry Christmas.