Zoom chat: 2023-01-19 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)
- Michelle DeSmyter
- Aleksey Khapchenko
00:19:44 Gopal Tadepalli: Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
00:20:06 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Hi everyone, welcome
00:20:27 Nthabiseng Pule: Hello everyone
00:21:45 Hadia El Miniawi: Hello all @Olivier sure
00:23:01 Dave Kissoondoyal - ICANN ALAC: Hello everyone.. apologies for being late
00:23:20 Greg Shatan: Apologies for my tardy appearance as well.
00:23:28 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Tout a fait Cher Ami
00:23:39 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Evening/afternoon/morning all.
00:23:50 Mouloud Khelif: Apologies for being late, some connectivity issues
00:24:09 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @JZ what kind of an investigation?
00:24:15 Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: To follow along with the RTT: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
00:25:07 Jonathan Zuck: @JM, an economic study of the marketplace so that the community better understand the competition landscape and the implication of price caps.
00:26:42 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @JZ The immediate effect of price caps has been to split the brand protection and first renewal activity. Price caps create stability but .INFO and .BIZ have been struggling with first renewals and against .COM and the ccTLDs.
00:27:59 Chokri Ben Romdhane: + Steunar
00:28:09 Jonathan Zuck: @JM, take a look at the recent decision on .ORG and .INFO. ICANN just spent more money defending itself than it would probably cost to truly study the issue.
00:28:22 Sivasubramanian M: Price caps were mandated only for the legacy TLDs. Is there any change to that policy?
00:28:25 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @JZ The ICANN data on registry reports is not granular enough for this kind of analysis because of synchronization issues (deletions don't exactly align with renewals).
00:28:32 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thanks @Steinar
00:28:39 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: YES we can
00:28:42 Glenn McKnight: yes
00:28:55 Jonathan Zuck: Let’s not have a parallel discussion. Thanks.
00:29:25 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @JZ .ORG is incredibibly sticky as regards renewals though. Might be a convo for the list or e-mail.
00:29:47 Holly Raiche: @JZ - given possible implications of price caps, a discussion in CPWG?? (or briefing?/)
00:29:53 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Noted @Daniel
00:30:36 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: :-)
00:31:04 Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: To follow along with the RTT: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
00:31:19 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The price caps issue is going to be a major one given that there's a bit of unrest in the gTLD market at the moment,
00:31:21 Christopher Wilkinson: @JM+jZ: The price caps lack context. What we need is a _permanent _ reporting on the DNS economy. It would be better to establish the necessary resources for economics and statistics in icANN.org CW
00:31:52 Holly Raiche: Thanks JM - a briefing here???
00:31:53 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @CW Your idea of a dedicated dept in ICANN for just this kind of work is a good one.
00:32:48 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Holly It would be difficult to type all thos domain name stats in the chat. :) The list might be best?
00:32:59 Michael Palage: @John, there was also a discussion regarding vertical integration. I would really encourage you to slog through the 170 page decision as there was an excellent economic analysis, in which there seemed to be agreement between ICANN's expert and Namecheap's expert
00:34:14 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael Must download it. Have crunched all ICANN's registry reports from 2001 into a database (those PDFs were wonderful to deal with) so it will be interesting to see if the ICANN/Namecheap analysis lines up with the data.
00:35:12 Carlos Dionisio Aguirre: hi. yes please
00:35:33 Holly Raiche: @ MP - the link please
00:36:30 Michael Palage: @John, yes your numbers are impeccable - but some of the discussion regarding how not all registrars may be able tp pass on Registry cost increases when that registry is vertically integrated.
00:36:59 Hadia El Miniawi: Ok so possible competeing interests is the problem
00:37:57 Holly Raiche: @ Michel - seriously, the link to the decision please
00:38:11 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael Registrars operate in different markets and have different pricing methods. As for resellers, that's a whole other planet.
00:38:28 Michael Palage: @John - have you read about the OECD DNS Security report. One of the interesting discussion points involve how resellers are outside ICANN's remit yet are part of the broader eco-system. I think this directly ties into Article 21 of NIS 2.0 which talks about Supply Chain security and potential substantial penalties.
00:39:30 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael Not yet. Too busy actually tracking calculating the stats for registrars and resellers. The off-registrar hosting market in the gTLDs is approximately 25% of the gTLD market.
00:39:31 Michael Palage: @John, there were provisions included in all the new base line registry agreements which require Registry participation in economic studies which I do not believe ICANN has ever leveraged.
00:40:01 Holly Raiche: @ MP - interesting to say resellers are outside ICANN’s remit. Legally, registrars are responsible for their resellers under the RAA
00:40:08 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael ICANN should but as Christoper has repeatedly pointed out, ICANN doesn't have a department dealing with this.
00:40:34 Jonathan Zuck: Such a department was Rec 1 from the CCTRT
00:40:37 Gopal Tadepalli: IMHO, Global Public Interest needs to assert "sovereignty". This is tricky in the Multi-Stakeholder Model of ICANN. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University
00:40:56 Alan Greenberg (ALAC): IRP in question: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/irp-namecheap-v-icann-2020-03-03-en
00:41:28 Michael Palage: Quote from OECD Paper "Resellers of domain names, which contract with registrars to sell a right-of-use of domain names to registrants. Resellers do not have a direct contractual relationship with ICANN."
00:42:39 Holly Raiche: @ MP - Interesting - how do they interpret the clauses in the RAA
00:42:41 Jonathan Zuck: Great. Substance!
00:43:11 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: If ICANN had a dedicated department it wouldn't have been indulging in pure Numerology about the expected demand for new gTLDs.
00:43:13 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thx @Greg and Alan safe travels to your meeting next week
00:43:14 Hadia El Miniawi: twitter
00:43:21 Michael Palage: Another OECD quote "Vulnerabilities of DNS actors, which may result from code vulnerabilities in the software used by these actors, misconfigurations, insufficient access controls (e.g. lack of a robust multi-factor authentication mechanism for a registrant’s account in the registrar’s platform) and the human factor (e.g. social engineering). They also include supply-chain attacks that would compromise registrars or resellers to reach their ultimate targets
00:43:43 Greg Shatan: In the future, everyone will have a blue checkmark for 15 minutes....
00:44:18 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael This is also one of the worries in DNS Abuse (lack of an identifiable killchain for malware/compromised sites.
00:44:40 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: the 15 minutes of fame. As a commodity, some will trade it. Some will speculate on it and some will rent it.
00:44:49 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wM5662oPNWPB7D0yEJRqod5HHWmvE0gIX1F4-F7S8Ic/edit
00:45:15 Michael Palage: There is also the previous .NET litigation which some registrars filed against VRSN back in the day. That decision specific excluded any analysis in the secondary market. I think the continued growth of GoDaddy in this market is also something interesting to look at especially in light of recent commission fees that have been raised on sellers.
00:46:04 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: GoDaddy has taken over some of the major secondary market operators (Dan/Undeveloped most recently).
00:46:29 Michael Palage: I could go on and on. Thus why I think it is incredibly valuable for an economic study of the complete domain name ecosystem as I believe that study is needed for us to better understand the policy landscape
00:47:59 Holly Raiche: @ MP Maybe it could be funded through the recent grants program if it isn’t done by ICANN itself
00:48:10 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Such a study is long overdue but the problem is that there is a serious lack of data in ICANN going on the published registry reports. The First Renewal rate is critical but all that's published is enough data for a blended renewal estimate.
00:48:55 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: total(renewas)/(total(renewals) + total(deletions)).
00:49:16 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The problem is that deletions/renewals don't seem to line up.
00:49:32 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: (the various grace periods and the publication date for the reports)
00:49:34 Michael Palage: @Holly, I kind of stumbled upon this as part of my budget research. I initially thought about a potential ABR but the sheer size of this undertaking is too big. This is why I would like to discuss how we bring this concern to the forefront through appropriate mechanisms
00:50:51 Holly Raiche: @ MP: Maybe some very specific ALAC questions to the Board -as a start?
00:51:10 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Success for Awareness = Registrations, web usage and renewals.
00:52:43 Chokri Ben Romdhane: numbers of submitted and succeeded applications no !
00:53:13 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The underserved regions will have problems with estimating demand. That may be one of the biggest deterrents to applying for a gTLD.
00:54:02 Michael Palage: @Holly, given the interrelation between the budget and the strategic plan, I think the upcoming engagement on the strategic plan may be the optimal way to use existing ICANN bylaw provided mechanisms to get more bang for the buck as opposed to just a one off letter, although I am not opposed to that as well.
00:55:00 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: By the time the 2012 round launched, the demand for most of the new gTLDs had disappeared.
00:55:07 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: it was all too little too late and not Regionally distributed evenly in effort
00:55:12 Holly Raiche: @ MP - good point
00:55:40 Jonathan Zuck: A delegated string!
00:56:08 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The aspirations are great but there's a distinct lack of infrastructure that is a major problem. (Very few registrars in underserved markets).
00:56:41 Michael Palage: @Holly I spent most of the weekend reading more about the budget, the ABR and strategic plan than I care to admit. I also submitted a number of questions to ICANN Planning Team prior to the Jan 16th cut off date
00:57:19 Holly Raiche: Agree John - there may be many reasons why people don’t apply - including things like supporting infrastruture
00:57:23 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: If you don't have the registrars in the market then who will sell the domain names? There's a cart before the horse aspect to some of this Awareness and Education in that the basics appear to be missing.
00:58:22 Chokri Ben Romdhane: if not measureable is not process by definition or in my opinion
00:59:41 Jonathan Zuck: And they were asked and studied by the CCT, for example.
00:59:54 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Well noted @Alan
01:00:16 Chokri Ben Romdhane: +Alan
01:00:50 Holly Raiche: Great point Alan
01:00:59 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The applications need both the registry and a registrar model. This might be going far beyond the current 1990s registry-registrar model used by ICANN.
01:01:01 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Unrealistic and unfair criteria indeed
01:01:19 Hadia El Miniawi: +1 the evaluation criteria was a main problem
01:01:46 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: +1 MP
01:02:16 Jonathan Zuck: Yes. Exactly. That baseline should change.
01:02:23 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: .MUSEUM is less than 1K regs
01:02:27 Chokri Ben Romdhane: at least there's an evelovement for a round to another
01:02:35 Daniel Nanghaka: I think we should look critically at the criteria
01:03:34 Alan Greenberg (ALAC): Annual TLD fees are not policy.
01:04:20 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Yes, thank you Maureen!
01:04:21 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Thank you @Maureen for the great explanations
01:04:22 Sarah Kiden: Thank you everyone
01:04:39 Hadia El Miniawi: Thank you for all the updates
01:05:21 Sarah Kiden: And thank you, Maureen
01:05:46 Steinar Grøtterød: Based on my experience working with CORE and their “special” applicants in the 2013 round, the problem was often NOT the application fee but the annual fees to ICANN.
01:06:17 Jonathan Zuck: Yes, @Steinar and the lack of a compelling business model
01:06:37 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Steinar Isn't Core more of a EU targeted operator?
01:07:14 Jonathan Zuck: Why does “private” imply, not in the public zone?
01:08:23 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: At-Large Workspace for this Public Comment proceeding: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/alacpolicydev/pages/102666823/At-Large+Workspace+Proposed+Procedure+for+Selecting+a+Top-Level+Domain+String+for+Private+Use
01:08:27 Jonathan Zuck: Name collisions is exactly WHY you want it in the public zone
01:08:38 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/proposed-procedure-for-selecting-a-top-level-domain-string-for-private-use-13-01-2023
01:08:47 Michael Palage: @John - one interesting fact that I recently stumbled upon. the fee to become a registrar has remained fixed at 3,500, yet the application fees has been 50K(2000), 45K(2004), 185K(2012), 250K (20XX)
01:08:51 Bill Jouris: Might we not block use of reserved strings by simply allocating them to ICANN itself? That is, have them in the DNS, just not going anywhere. So if someone wants to set it up locally, it trying to do so will result in a bounce.
01:09:21 Steinar Grøtterød: @JZ: The business model was OK. In particular for the cultural and linguistic TLDs, the challenge was to get the community to bind a budget for the future. Domain under Management is not a criteria for success
01:10:03 Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/alacpolicydev/pages/102666823/At-Large+Workspace+Proposed+Procedure+for+Selecting+a+Top-Level+Domain+String+for+Private+Use
01:10:43 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael Did a check of all the ccTLD registrars last May and ended up with something around 15K of them. There are only about 800 retail/brand registrars for ICANN. It is often cheaper and easier to become a ccTLD registrar and consequently the gTLDs are going legacy in many markets.
01:11:35 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Over to JZ for ICANN76
01:12:22 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: ICANN's registry-registrar model is almost a quarter of a century old. The Internet has changed since then.
01:13:58 Maureen Hilyard: Sorry I have to drop off to attend another meeting. Thank you for your inputs to our GGP work..
01:14:05 Michael Palage: @John, would love to talk about these numbers offline- yes another reason why an economic study would be helpful.
01:15:04 Hadia El Miniawi: Bye Maureen thank you
01:16:00 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael Will e-mail some of the latest brand hosters data. The real world is quite different to how it may appear from ICANN registry reports.
01:17:29 Sivasubramanian M: Reacted to "ICANN's registry-r..." with
01:19:01 Mouloud Khelif: @Hadia + 1
01:19:50 Hadia El Miniawi: @Holly thank you
01:20:58 Michael Palage: @John, the OECD report and NIS 2.0 has really opened my eyes as to why ICANN needs an economic evaluation.
01:21:03 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: For ICANN76, there’s also the standing agenda item of Advice
01:21:55 Michael Palage: I need to drop for another call - will listen to the recording later today for any missed issues
01:21:59 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Michael The market is moving away from gTLDs and ICANN doesn't seem to realise why yet.
01:22:11 Gopal Tadepalli: @Jonathan Zuck: Suggestion: "Technology Debt" in the Developing Countries. I am doing a talk at the 46th Indian Social Science Congress, 27 - 31 January 2023. I am a member of the Computer Science Research Group. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University
01:22:25 Sivasubramanian M: Michael Please post the link to the OECD report on NIS 2
01:23:13 Claudia Ruiz - ICANN Org: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/atlarge/pages/99672841/ICANN76+-+March+2023+Community+Forum
01:24:15 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Siva the NIS 2 PDF should be on the EU/Europa website. Have to Google for the OECD report.
01:24:57 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: ICANN76 workspace: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/atlarge/pages/99672841/ICANN76+-+March+2023+Community+Forum
01:25:07 Sivasubramanian M: I tried, it wasn't on top of the results, Will look closer or modify my search strings @John
01:25:54 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Siva looking through this https://www.oecd.org/digital/publicationsdocuments/reports/
01:28:14 Yrjo Lansipuro: https://www.oecd.org/sti/security-of-the-domain-name-system-dns-285d7875-en.htm
01:28:52 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Got there first Yrjo, :)
01:29:58 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: they are massive documents
01:30:18 Hadia El Miniawi: Thank you Christopher
01:31:20 Judith Hellerstein: Does everyone see a black screen?
01:31:44 Holly Raiche: ` My screen is fine
01:31:45 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Seeing the document.
01:32:07 Judith Hellerstein: Great my screen is back
01:32:36 Sivasubramanian M: @John found this, which is interesting, but haven't found the one that is on NIS 2
01:32:38 Jonathan Zuck: Little cross pollination…
01:32:38 Sivasubramanian M: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/285d7875-en.pdf?expires=1674073650&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=9C6F4E1C4F19C1D8FC8F657C7DFC3A0A
01:33:09 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Siva Don't think that Michael meant that the OECD did a report in NIS2. He mentioned the two reports.
01:35:47 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: on NIS2
01:37:10 Sivasubramanian M: @Yrjo Thank you. I stumbled on the document, and from your link, and after what John said, probably this was it. Thanks
01:38:39 Yrjo Lansipuro: https://www.nis-2-directive.com/Links.html
01:38:56 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Here is the proceeding: https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/draft-fy2428-operating-financial-plan-and-draft-fy24-operating-plan-budget-14-12-2022
01:39:13 Sivasubramanian M: Thank you @Yrjo
01:39:16 Claudia Ruiz - ICANN Org: Google doc: https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=22226982
01:39:18 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/draft-op-financial-plan-fy24-28-draft-opplan-fy24-2022-en.pdf
01:39:41 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: ALAC workspace for this proceeding: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=102666769
01:39:50 Claudia Ruiz - ICANN Org: Thanks @Chantelle
01:40:05 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Google doc (in progress) and also in the workspace: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DauJQtEeKBVxl2rs5-LcF6qewqrJY0zAMC0b6WLbvkk/edit#
01:41:53 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: For housekeeping: The workspace for this statement, and all other statements, can be found under the Public Comment topic in the weekly CPWG agenda
01:42:43 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: :-) @Alan
01:44:07 Jonathan Zuck: He’s not
01:45:01 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: It is a very complex field and there are no easy answers.
01:45:38 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: There is one certainty: the economists wil get it wrong. How wrong is a sliding scale.
01:46:52 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The after market is actually three market. The investment grade doms that keep renewing. The mid-range doms that might last for a few years before being deleted. And the highly speculative registrations that will not renew on the first renewal.
01:47:33 Hadia El Miniawi: +1 Jonathan to conducting a meaningful economic study
01:47:41 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: 35 million new gTLD regs in year one?
01:47:49 Mouloud Khelif: Thks @Chantelle
01:48:08 Hadia El Miniawi: Thank you Alan
01:48:10 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: groups studies could be 3+ not even 4 different outcomes, BUT the infor is important to seek out
01:48:57 Herb Waye Ombuds: Very informative call… thanks everyone. Stay safe and be kind
01:48:58 Hadia El Miniawi: Ok great - Thank you all
01:49:35 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Bye for now … Intwresting call indeed
01:50:06 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Thank you all for joining
01:50:37 Nthabiseng Pule: Thank you everyone
01:50:40 Hadia El Miniawi: Bye
01:50:42 Gopal Tadepalli: Thank you all. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University
01:50:49 Steinar Grøtterød: Bye
01:50:52 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Thanks and later all.
01:51:03 Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org: Goodbye!