Zoom chat: 2023-04-19 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)
- Michelle DeSmyter
- Aleksey Khapchenko
- Yesim Saglam
15:44:38 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Welcome to At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG) Call taking place on Wednesday, 19 April 2023 at 13:00 UTC.
15:44:48 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Agenda: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/qPDwBQ
15:57:48 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Hello all!
15:58:10 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
stepping away briefly
15:58:59 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Morning/Afternoon/Evening all.
15:59:52 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thanks for your presentation today on DNS abuse
16:00:28 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
back
16:00:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Posted some comments to the mailing list on the Bulk Registrations issue and the lack of data.
16:01:56 From Priyatosh Jana to Everyone:
Hi everyone
16:01:58 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone:
Greetings all.
16:02:09 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Saw those John... Thx
16:02:28 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
16:03:23 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
RTT Link: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
16:03:25 From Dave Kissoondoyal - ICANN ALAC to Everyone:
Hello everyone
16:03:42 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
For the record, Maureen Hilyard is also an apology for today’s call
16:05:17 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Cheryl The issue might need to be reframed as there does seem to be a lot of pushback from the registries/registrars. Unfortunately, they are right on most of it so it may get nowhere in its current form.
16:05:38 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Understood John...
16:06:29 From Sivasubramanian Muthusamy to Everyone:
Push back for what (sorry joined late)? @john
16:07:14 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva on the Bulk Registrations issue. The registries/registrars seem to have a different understanding of the issue.
16:07:16 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Sorry- technical difficulties with my second monitor— trying to find the unmute button!
16:09:59 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Closed generics is meeting now of course ;-)
16:12:38 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Thx Sarah
16:12:51 From Sivasubramanian Muthusamy to Everyone:
Thank you John
16:15:44 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Suggestion: Blending Qualitative and Quantitative was a research paper I wrote with one of my Ph.D Scholars. Please visit: https://www.praiseworthyprize.org/jsm/index.php?journal=ireit&page=article&op=view&path%5B%5D=0203 - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
16:17:45 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
No not at all no NEW Recs tey are already established
16:18:39 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
++ JZ
16:18:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Planning to fail in order to achieve a limited level of success?
16:19:09 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
not fearing failure I would suggest John
16:19:21 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
Replying to "@JZ Planning to fail..."
Perhaps not so much planning to fail as not expecting twotal success
16:19:37 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
Thank you Sara
16:19:42 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
Replying to "@JZ Planning to fail..."
total
16:19:48 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Cheryl Not every gTLD will be a great success but there's no harm in trying to help them succeed.
16:21:07 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
It’s mostly about rdap
16:21:12 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
The Public Comment proceeding is on the proposed agreement for renewal of the .NET Registry Agreement. This proposed agreement is a result of bilateral discussions between ICANN and VeriSign, Inc., the registry operator for the .NET top-level domain.
16:21:50 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Bill It is the old aspirations meeting reality problem. Good data can help and that was almost completely missing in thelast round. The new round applicants need all the help they can get.
16:21:58 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
URL: https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/proposed-renewal-of-the-registry-agreement-for-net-13-04-2023
16:22:33 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
I wonder how many of the various items where we have heard "Not in the contract" are covered. Clearly some. But some flexibility for future issues might be nice.
16:22:49 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
a recommendation not advice
16:23:35 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
We’ll note Michael Palace and Bill Jouris for the review
16:23:51 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
There is one more Public Comment proceeding that has opened (and that we’ll add to next week’s agenda): it’s for the OFB-WG regarding the Bylaws Amendments and Documents to Implement the NomCom2 Review, closing May 29,
16:23:55 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/bylaws-amendments-and-documents-to-implement-the-nomcom2-review-17-04-2023
16:23:55 From Michael Palage to Everyone:
Bill do you want to ping me off-line to schedule time to talk
16:24:13 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Yes John but in this group of potential applicants for Support in at least the Application aspects of a new Round on those potential applicants for such names that fit specific criteria for Applicant Support so perhaps more assist is required and Risk:Rewards balance could well be skewed from "normal"expectations
16:24:52 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
Come back to the group to introduce the topic and your thoughts
16:25:20 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
Great
16:25:24 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
Thank you
16:25:36 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Cheryl The problem last time was that a lot of applicants didn't understand the market for their gTLD(s) and ICANN's 35 million regs in Y1 didn't help.
16:28:05 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
and that may well be true again... we don't know so same success measures *may* not readily apply in the program, but regardless they need to be clearly articulated and of course give data that could be useful in future analysis of the program (AS)
16:28:35 From Sarah Kiden to Everyone:
Hi everyone, I apologise that I have to drop off the call in a few minutes to join another call. I will listen to the rest of the recording.
16:29:16 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Cheryl The most useful thing for applicants would be a guide to the level of registrars and resellers in their market. If they can't sell the domain names then the gTLDs will fizzle.
16:29:25 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thank you Sarah for joining and leading us through the GGP update!
16:30:39 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Why is Spec 11.3B *NOT* being discussed @Justine?
16:31:07 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Justine The Bulk Registrations issue may need to be reframed based on the pushback from the registries/registrars. The economic component of the issue is completely missing. (Not sure where the Bulk Registrations framing originated.)
16:31:47 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Understood John, but the AS program fousses on other barriers as well including but not limited to cost of initial application… that's where a lot of what Sarah and Maureen will be focussing on measuring success of the AS 'as such' not the just the viability of any new tld as a result of it...
16:32:56 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Don’t provide for ANY real consequences
16:33:54 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Cheryl It is almost like trying to put a non-existent cart before a hypothetical horse in that the market size won't be known until the gTLD launches and the supporting infrastructure of the market is not known. Probably a more difficult problem than the one that this process is dealing with.
16:35:07 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
indeed ...
16:42:38 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva No.
16:42:53 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva That's done in the Sunrise phases.
16:44:55 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
<comment>The phrase "Bulk Registrations" is problematic and poorly defined. It needs reframing.</comment>
16:45:00 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
The RO has the opportunity to set a namespace as premium i.e. higher fee for registration than for regular names. In my view, this is not “bulk registrations”. If a registrant buy a batch of premium names and sell on a even higher price - it is still not a bulk registration
16:45:24 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
May be a Useful Reference: The Challenge of Defining DNS Abuse at: https://www.first.org/blog/20220519_The_Challenge_of_Defining_DNS_Abuse - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
16:46:04 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
I am sorry. I am on a unstable internet connection now. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
16:46:57 From Sivasubramanian Muthusamy to Everyone:
"If a registrant buys a batch ... it is still NOT bulk registration" Why ever not?
16:47:11 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
<comment>Most of the prior work donin ccTLD analysis is useless for Bulk Registrations analysis because it rarely occurs in ccTLDs due to its economic driver. (discounts)</comment>
16:48:05 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
<comment>BRDs are more complex than DNS Abuse as there is a strong content abuse angle.</comment>
16:49:28 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
<comment>The .LOAN had 1,866,032 regs in Feb 2018. In Feb 2023, only 2,227 were still in the zone. That's what Bulk Regisrations look like.</comment>
16:52:12 From Sivasubramanian Muthusamy to Everyone:
Bulk registration can't be defined? Bulk registrations are outside the scope of DNS abuse????
16:54:08 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
<comment>To reduce the Bulk Registrations, limit the depth of discounts. That removes a primary economic driver for BRDs. The registries/registrars may not want to do that because some gTLDs may not be viable without the discounting model.</comment>
16:54:32 From Sivasubramanian Muthusamy to Everyone:
The remaining 1873805 will get to malicious loan operators at a premium or otherwise be used for spam?
16:55:21 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva They were deleted and most were not renewed on first renewal.
16:55:56 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
On what criteria can the Ro “stop” a bulk registration batch?
16:56:54 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
@all - Kind reminder to please avoid speaking all at once. It makes it very difficult for interpreters to interpret and identify who's speaking. Thank you.
16:57:07 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
And maybe it is a business model that would like to keep - so let’s look into how to ensure bulk registrations are safe
16:57:27 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
indeed Hadia
16:58:09 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Hadia That gets into the content policing problem.
16:58:23 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@JM, if you have an idea HOW to reframe it, we welcome it but it doesn’t seem like something we should let go
16:59:02 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
I don’t think anyone is proposing prohibition, just friction
16:59:48 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Heavily Discounted Regisrations. It is frustrating as I appear to be the only one here who has actually dealt with the issue in real life with the Web Usage and Stats work. It isn't simple a DNS Abuse issue.
17:00:25 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ The economic aspect drives BRDs.
17:02:10 From Carlos Dionisio Aguirre to Everyone:
+1 @CLO
17:03:15 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
@Steiner and @ Justine: As you would appreciate, it is imperative to provide for DNS Propagation. Please look into the document at: https://www.internetjurisdiction.net/uploads/pdfs/Internet-Jurisdiction-Policy-Network-20-114-Choice-of-Action.pdf - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
17:03:48 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
It is not too hard to zoom in on BRDs. It is glaringly obvious.
17:04:27 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
How do we define them then, JM?
17:05:04 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Both sound good
17:05:18 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
Great thank you Justine
17:05:19 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Indeed solid approach
17:05:27 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
Thanks Justine.
17:05:31 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Heavily Discounted Registrations
17:07:28 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ This obsession with the flawed "Bulk Registrations" is just going to keep getting shot down by registries and registrars. It is extremely flawed.
17:09:27 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
But JM, can’t there be non-bulk registrations of heavily discounted TLDs?
17:10:14 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Yes but there are some very different signatures in terms of development and use.
17:10:15 From Laura Margolis to Everyone:
JZ of course there could be
17:10:49 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
So there will be CPH push back on doing something about discounting registrations as well
17:10:54 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
@Satish: The sessions of the UA Day Celebrations in India that I could manage to attend online were very quite useful. Many thanks. I suppose we will have to simply docket the reports as submitted. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
17:12:09 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ It need multiple data sources to understand it. Yes, the CPH will pushback on it because the business model is essential for the viability of some gTLDs. Think of it as throwing mud against a wall and seeing how much sticks. After a while, a layer of "mud" builds up and hardens (renews).
17:13:55 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
But the abuse can take place without a renewal. In fact, renewals are probably an indicator of non-malicious registrations, no?
17:14:56 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Speculative, undeveloped or abused? Difficult question but a lot of BRDs end up being used as outlined in the Interisle report.
17:15:01 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
I support asking for a report/update from the UASG on UADay
17:15:20 From Naveed to Everyone:
Are we expecting a consolidated report on UA Day generated by UASG?
17:15:30 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Not all the UA Day events are completed as yet
17:15:45 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
Thank you Satish
17:16:44 From Amrita Choudhury to Everyone:
+1
17:17:19 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Jonathan’s correct re events for UA day: out of the 53 activities that were approved, 22 of them were from At-Large
17:17:44 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Well noted @JZ
17:17:53 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ There is also a development curve with a lot of registrations. (the Signs of Life surveys will pick them up). The non-renewals in many new gTLDs is actually quite low and there is a correlation with heavy discounting because the renewal fee goes up to around $20 while the regfee would have been $5 or even $1.
17:18:31 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
+1 JZ could be adopted by other initiatives
17:18:41 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Our last item on today’s agenda is ICANN77 planning
17:18:51 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
quite likely Hadia *if* resourced
17:19:06 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
@Cheryl indeed
17:19:43 From Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org to Everyone:
@Amrita, the recent AFRALO monthly call had an agenda item where ALSes could report on their UA Day event. There was an incredible enthusiasm and excitement in their reporting.
17:19:53 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Yes!
17:20:03 From Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Perhaps other RALOs may wish to consider adding an item on their next RALO monthly calls.
17:21:06 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Right, thanks @Satish
17:22:35 From Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org to Everyone:
It would be very useful if there could be agreement on the At-Large policy sessions.
17:26:26 From Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org to Everyone:
The SSAC meeting might also be a call pre/post ICANN77.
17:27:23 From Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Does At-Large wish to have more policy sessions or participate in other SOAC meetings?
17:29:44 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Still on the DNS Abuse and BRD issue, t is not in the financial interests of the CPH to deal with BRDs so a failure to reframe the issue is just going to be politely ignored.
17:30:02 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
*faint
17:30:16 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Don't think I could stand the excitement. :)
17:30:32 From sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Has there been a call for participation in icann77 pc already?
17:31:08 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
@Siva, can you post your question regarding bulk registration here so I can study it further please?
17:31:09 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
For ICANN77, if At-Large were to have a session and invite someone for the Board, we need to identify that asap.
17:31:10 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone:
Very informative meeting. Thank you. Stay safe and be kind.
17:31:31 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Replying to "@Siva, can you post ..."
Or email me please
17:31:31 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Bye for now everyone I have had it reinforced why lately I do not usually attend calls in this time slot. Thanks everyone...
17:31:42 From sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Yes I will.
17:31:51 From Nthabiseng Pule - Maseru, Lesotho to Everyone:
Thank you everyone
17:31:53 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thank you all for joining
17:31:54 From Alfredo Calderon to Everyone:
Bye to all. Be safe and well
17:31:59 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
Thanks and bye!
17:32:03 From Mouloud Khelif to Everyone:
Thanks
17:32:26 From Hadia’s iPhone to Everyone:
Bye all
17:32:29 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Thank you all.
17:32:30 From Thoko Miya to Everyone:
Thank you to everyone. Goodbye.
17:32:33 From Dave Kissoondoyal - ICANN ALAC to Everyone:
Thanks and bye to all
17:32:34 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
bye all
17:32:42 From Laura Margolis to Everyone:
Thank you all! Very interesting updates and discussions as well
17:32:46 From Denise Hochbaum to Everyone:
Thank you Hadia, JZ, Satish, Olivier!!!
17:32:48 From sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Justine This is what I posted Bulk registration can't be defined? Bulk registrations are outside the scope of DNS abuse????
17:32:48 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Thanks and later all.
17:32:59 From sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thank u
17:33:01 From Esther Nyapendi to Everyone:
Thank you