Zoom chat: 2022-10-12 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)
- Michelle DeSmyter
- Aleksey Khapchenko
- Yesim Saglam
18:36:43 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Welcome to At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG) Call taking place on Wednesday, 12 October 2022 at 16:00 UTC.
18:36:56 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Agenda: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/hN7wBQ
18:53:18 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Hi Olivier, welcome!
18:54:10 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Hi Hadia, welcome!
18:56:35 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
sure
19:00:20 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
hi all
19:00:30 From Priyatosh Jana to Everyone:
hi everyone
19:00:43 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
let's go ahead
19:02:22 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
19:02:35 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Hi all, welcome and thank you for joining
19:02:51 From Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Welcome, All!
19:03:00 From Herb Waye to Everyone:
Always a pleasure to join with you on these informative calls.
19:03:10 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
RTT Link: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
19:03:47 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
Herb, at this reat you will end up knowing more about what is happening at ICANN than anybody else.
19:03:59 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
reat => rate
19:04:24 From Christopher Wilkinson to Everyone:
Hearing you all fine, from Xàbia CW
19:07:45 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
A very sad loss
19:07:52 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Yes **Vey Sad** news indeed
19:08:11 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
A great loss for our community...
19:08:12 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Universal Timezone?
19:08:12 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
May his soul rest in peace
19:12:09 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Yes, I did, Steinar
19:12:12 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Hi Steinar, yes Thank you for the update
19:12:13 From Raymond Mamattah to Everyone:
Loud and clear
19:13:53 From Sébastien Bachollet to Everyone:
https://domainincite.com/28339-icann-to-mull-bulk-registration-ban
19:15:23 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
yes dure
19:15:25 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
sure
19:15:31 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
go ahead
19:16:20 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Here is the link to the document for others to follow: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hz5f8gNyE2i1yaiPPGUyuWfobbr2UcJOkKSEifqgnXU/edit
19:17:24 From Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC to Everyone:
Hello everyone. Apologies for being late
19:22:02 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Thanks for this update @Satish I support the not doing a comment based on this guidance from you...
19:22:14 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Here is the Public Comment proceeding: https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/universal-acceptance-roadmap-for-domain-name-registry-and-registrar-systems-31-08-2022
19:23:01 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Yes that feedback ca go back via @Satish
19:23:38 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Not sure I understand the difference between "formal" public comment and "telling them" about issues of confusion
19:23:57 From Mutegeki Cliff to Everyone:
Hello. Sorry I have joined a bit late for the meeting.
19:25:58 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Hi Mutegeki, welcome
19:26:41 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
@Jonathan - perhaps one is a direct channel through the liaison and the other is the formal channel via the public comment?
19:27:30 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
That is what I understood @OCL
19:28:32 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
To my knowledge, TANGO is tuned for gTLDs, CORE Gateway handles both gTLDs and ccTLDs
19:28:42 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@Olivier, is this not a WG on which we have representatives? Wouldn't they have communicated those issues directly?
19:29:54 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
yes. I guess that's the direct channel
19:30:22 From Shah Zahidur Rahman to Everyone:
for reseller UA ready wud be very challenging unless thy traind up. standalone platform thy need joint effort maybe
19:30:51 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Here is a link to the presentation deck, https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=99671684&preview=/215288337/215289141/20221012v1%20IDNs-EPDP%20ppt%20for%20CPWG%2012Oct2022.pdf#PDPs-85440982
19:45:52 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
pharming
19:47:50 From Eduardo Díaz to Everyone:
This is a very hard slide to follow and understand
19:51:23 From Alfredo López to Everyone:
Estoy de acuerdo con Eduardo
19:52:00 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
@Justine thanks so much for this, your ability to clarify quite complicated matters in such a clear and decisive way is a joy to observe I must say ! Excellent … and as such it seems to me that the Hybrid model suggestion makes good sense, and should be supported, subject as you note to the discretionary aspects for the ALAC Team...
19:52:25 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Interesting that the NCAP work has come to rest on a risk analysis model
19:54:01 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
The RZ-LGR is not impacted or changed.
19:54:19 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
@Jusitne: Thank you. What if IDN LGRs are represented as XML and not as three levels? - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
19:54:20 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Yup that ws my understanding
19:54:28 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
Does this not exemplify why people wont want to use IDNs if there is a risk that they are will not get to where they really want to go?
19:55:24 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
@Maureen, we are trying to avoid such situations, but variants make it harded because of the sheer numbers. The hybrid model reduces these numbers.
19:55:32 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
*harder
19:55:53 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Maureen, that is precisely why some people will want to use IDNs -- to achieve confusion for their own purposes
19:55:55 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
OK understood
19:56:00 From Mutegeki Cliff to Everyone:
That's a very valid issues you have raised Maureen.
19:57:30 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
complexity in implementation
19:57:56 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
but with reasonable implelemnation gidelines this could be overrcome
19:58:16 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
implementation - overcome
19:58:21 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
I don’t understand why blocked variants should be tested in the string similarity process
20:00:08 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
@Steinar fear of misconnection
20:00:29 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
If the hybrid model minimises the risk in the implementation of the use of IDNs, then I support it
20:00:39 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
Blocked variant of one label may resemble the primary/allocatable variant of another label.
20:00:48 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
it's simply a more rigorous set of comparisons
20:01:14 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
yup
20:02:38 From Alberto Soto to Everyone:
Sorry, I’m very later!
20:03:28 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
good users experiences is the main aim
20:03:43 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
+1 Hadia
20:03:58 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
As it should be
20:05:14 From Naveed to Everyone:
I was wondering if there are some known and well considered cons of the Hybrid Model
20:06:09 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
@Steinar - when you mentioned 404 error I couldn't help thinking what nasty tricks some operators now do to intercept these and try to redirect to monetize on them
20:07:56 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@OCL the “king" of these tricks has been the wildcard
20:08:38 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
@Naveed, earlier on, there were some concerns earlier that it is overly complex, but now there is support from most participants
20:08:51 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
“wildcard” is not allowed in gTLDs (thank to that)
20:09:18 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
not anymore, @Steinar
20:10:15 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
@Roberto: Would like the reference to this
20:11:04 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
There might be a bit of confusion about 404s (a webserver HTTP response) and NXDOMAIN traffic.
20:11:28 From Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC to Everyone:
27% unsure
20:11:33 From Naveed to Everyone:
Atleast no one is against
20:12:08 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
Thank you Justine
20:12:08 From Sarah Kiden to Everyone:
@John, I agree. Until you hear Justine explaining, it’s a bit confusing
20:12:08 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@Steinar - will email you - too complex to develop in the chat here
20:12:41 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Thx @Roberto
20:12:50 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Sarah It is a very complex issue and Justine's explanations made a lot of sense.
20:13:23 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
@John McCormac, I am alluding to DPI being used to intercept in addition to the NXDOMAIN
20:13:59 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
jut like the address bar is slowly being merged with the search bar… all these are becoming rather blurry...
20:14:02 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Olivier DPI caused a lot of problems. I think that BT was using it in the UK for a while but ran into legal problems.
20:15:13 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Phorum may have been the monetization system they were using.
20:15:33 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
but as a short comment, Verisign introduced the wildcard to eliminate the 404 and route instead the DNS queries to a site of theirs - community protested, SSAC wrote a paper against the wildcard, and at the end of a long struggle it has been accepted by the community that the wildcard could not be used - of course, for ccTLDs this is only voluntary, as they are not subject to ICANN contracts
20:16:01 From Alan Greenberg (JGS-Montreal) to Everyone:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/council/2022-October/026099.html
20:17:21 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Roberto The 404 is a webserver response. I think that Verisign were using NXD traffc before it became valuable for Domain Tasting.
20:17:38 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
To Alan’s point, Two webinars were held, and the recordings/call materials can be found here: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/data-protection-meetings-2017-12-08-en
20:17:47 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Yes they were well worthwhile
20:17:58 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Thx @Alan
20:20:22 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@JmcC agree, 404 is the response by the application, what they were doing is to use a wildcard to cause the DNS to find a site instead of reporting an error
20:21:24 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
so a “not-found” error was never detected and no 404 was produced
20:22:08 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Roberto It was a very nasty trick played on users.
20:23:17 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
yes the adding of RDAP is all part of the proper process to have RDAP replace WHOIS. "standard procedure"
20:24:45 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@JmcC …and it allowed VSGN to propose to the user who would have hit the 404 to buy the “missing” domain, undermining competition
20:25:55 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
I recall the system was called SiteFinder and it was more about proposing alternatives. The primary disadvantage was not to end users but to browser makers who had previously been capturing 404 to do their own landing screen
20:26:23 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Roberto Yep. Registries really should only be allowed to be the registrar of last resort rather than competing with its own registrars.
20:27:01 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@Roberto, I don't recall it being a sales platform per se but an alternative to the typo capture by browsers
20:28:02 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Typo captures became very valuable data. A lot of domain names are typos and they apparently monetise quite well.
20:30:06 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Right @JM. I'm just saying the victims here were the browser companies that thought THEY should be capturing that data, instead Verisign. Wasn't really an end user problem. Behaved nearly the same as the functionality implemented in browsers
20:30:36 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Netsol was previously owned by Verisign.
20:32:04 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ And there was also the Deep Packet Inspection/DPI that Olivier mentioned that was being used to monetise this traffic too.
20:32:15 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@JZ you could be right, but my recollection is that at the end of the day it also helped sales
20:32:56 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
@Justine: Please also look into RFC 8228 [2017] titled Guidance on Designing Label Generation Rulesets (LGRs) Supporting Variant Labels. XML as you rightly say is the Lingua Franca of LGRs. It may be more optimal than the levels and the string comparisons that take time. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
20:33:05 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@JM Wasn't Network Solutions originally a part of Microsoft?
20:33:40 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva No. It was part of Verisign.
20:34:22 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Well, originally it was standalone and was purchased by Verisign
20:35:48 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@Siva in the current form, it originated from the split between Ry and Rar mandated by ICANN - in the original form, it was the contractor who got .com, .org, .net from USG, later bought by VSGN
20:36:02 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
lets leave it for another week
20:36:16 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
@Gopal, I don't think what you're suggesting is strictly relevant to what we're discussing which is which variants should we use for string similarity review and how.
20:36:36 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
+1 Olivier
20:36:49 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
+2 Olivier
20:37:55 From Herb Waye to Everyone:
Thank you for the professional and informative call. Stay safe and be kind.
20:38:11 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
19 October 13:00 UTC
20:38:20 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Thanks everyone, good session today... Bye for now then...
20:38:21 From Nthabiseng Pule to Everyone:
Thank you everyone. Bye
20:38:27 From Mouloud Khelif - ICANN75 Fellow to Everyone:
Thsnks everyone
20:38:28 From Chantelle Doerksen - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thank you all for joining.
20:38:29 From Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC to Everyone:
Thanks and bye to all
20:38:33 From Hadia El Miniawi to Everyone:
Thank you all - bye for today
20:38:34 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Thanks and later all.
20:38:35 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Thx
20:38:40 From Alfredo López to Everyone:
Gracias
20:38:43 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
Thanks everyone
20:38:43 From Bukola Oronti to Everyone:
thank you all, informative session
20:39:04 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
Bye all - thanks!
20:39:20 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
@Gopal, RFC 8228 is more relevant to RZ-LGR per se. We are dealing with what to do with the variant sets generated by RZ-LGR.
20:39:27 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thank you !
20:39:29 From Benjamin Akinmoyeje to Everyone:
bye
20:39:41 From Alfredo López to Everyone:
Buen dia a todos