AC Chat: 2018-09-20 Consolidated Policy Working Group Call
- Andrea Glandon
- Aleksey Khapchenko
- Yesim Saglam
- Claudia Ruiz
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome to the At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG) Call on Thursday, 20 September 2018 at 19:00 UTC
Ā Claudia Ruiz:https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/SPXvBQ
Ā Holly Raiche:Hello - I'm waiting for a dial out
Ā Claudia Ruiz:We are dialing out to you Holly, thank you
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Hello all, welcome! Agenda: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/SPXvBQ
Ā John Laprise:Hi all...at work so I'll be mostly listening and writing in the chat
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Welcome John!
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:Apologies -- currently finishing an ICANN62 prep meeting
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:I mean ICANN63 sorry
Ā Jonathan Zuck:Hoping you mean ICANN63!
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:yup :-)
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Welcome Olivier!
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):I am in the AC
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):will join Audio shortly
Ā EjikemeĀ Egbuogu:hello everybody
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:I am awaiting a dial out & as soon as on the call, we'll be starting
Ā Nadira AL-Araj:hi all,just wanted to let yku know that I will be leaving at the top of the hour
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Thank you @Nadira, noted
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome Cheryl Langdon-Orr
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome Dev Anand Teelucksingh
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome Alan Greenberg
Ā Alan Greenberg:URL?
Ā Maureen Hilyard:Hi Claudia.. we've all come from another call. :)
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome Hadia Elminiawi
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Grabbing link now
Ā Evin Erdogdu:View-only (public) link: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_1bbQttBnzbQ1Z73YttYb8nzDQyG9jlCjEeZ-2DhfTVF-2Db8_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=CXERzIws_vaPY8WrLB9yz2PICpecEh3yA9MaabnyyBk&m=3L_clmtAlFqYtvOA7tv8ABbf8V6f6RBYxfu066qk9fQ&s=UicHukMHf10BvVqxPt4kqBNtMQg_xWT5bwD3FTTFAZg&e=
Ā Jonathan Zuck:Folks can comment though?
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome Sebastien Bachollet
Ā John Laprise:Strongly support Alan/Milton
Ā John Laprise:If we don't establish legitimate GDPR rationales we're sunk.
Ā John Laprise:FYI here's the GDPR compliant privacy I worked on at my employer: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rsna.org_Privacy-2DPolicy_&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=CXERzIws_vaPY8WrLB9yz2PICpecEh3yA9MaabnyyBk&m=3L_clmtAlFqYtvOA7tv8ABbf8V6f6RBYxfu066qk9fQ&s=d7DUFYT9NQdVjKesDwgtZ4I0Roeul3IU1bL-PjWpB2I&e=
Ā John Laprise:There's also GDPR requirements for data minimization and data accuracy
Ā John Laprise:We can't keep more data than we need and we have to insure that the data we have *cough* WHOIS *cough* has to be accurate
Ā Claudia Ruiz:@Alan- Seun is on the call
Ā Jonathan Zuck:and there IS a high correlation between piracy and malware
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome Tanya Tropina
Ā Holly Raiche:Heaven knows I hope EPDP goes beyond the usual self interest - I hope Alan is right and that there is reason for hope
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:+ 1 Alan BC, GAC, SSAC and sometimes IPC
Ā Tanya Tropina:Hi all :-) sorry for being late.
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Welcome Eduardo Diaz
Ā Holly Raiche:(And when Milton is being helpful, there is reason for hope)
Ā Tanya Tropina:Holly, Milton is not only helpful, he is one of the people who is trying to bring this EPDP discussion back on track from discussing access ad nauseam
Ā Tanya Tropina:(I feel like I join just in time :-))
Ā Holly Raiche:(and I agree with Alan's analysis - prupose is,and always has been, the key)
Ā Holly Raiche:And Tanya - Milton is very smart, and very capable - he just hasn't always been helpful, so I'm delighted he is being so now
Ā John Laprise:piracy and malware correlation acknowledged nonetheless it's not clear that's an ICANN responsibility or LEO responsibility (personally I think it's the latter)
Ā Tanya Tropina:Holly :-)
Ā Holly Raiche:@ John - I think that's the nub of the issue
Ā Alan Greenberg:@John, you are wrong, and I look forward to convinving you of that.
Ā Holly Raiche:@ john - so very true
Ā Alan Greenberg:It is, or should be very clear. It all comes down to our responsibility for ensuring a stable, reliable DNS.
Ā Alan Greenberg:WE cannot make that happen along, but we have an obligation to facilitate it.
Ā Holly Raiche:@ Alan - I would have thought that our starting point is the GdpR - and what purposes com under it
Ā Greg Shatan:@John, LEO canāt dodge their part of the responsibility, and ICANN canāt dodge their responsibility.Ā Itās not a binary.
Ā Tanya Tropina:Do you call LEA "LEO" on the other side of the pond? I am sorry, just want to ensure I get it well
Ā Alan Greenberg:@Holly, and our job is to build that rationale
Ā CW:@ Greg- no capito?
Ā Holly Raiche:@ Alan - so we really on the same page - as I thought.Ā I think John is there too - we are all trying to fit stuff under that umbrella
Ā Greg Shatan:Holly, GDPR is not granular on purpose, though it is specific on the categories of lawful bases of processing.
Ā Jonathan Zuck:contacted by each other and visitors to their sites
Ā Holly Raiche:Goog example Alan - (and the GDRp generally makes LEA an exeption)
Ā CW:@Alan's example is valid.
Ā Greg Shatan:@CW, my Italian isvery limited, outside of restaurants.Ā What are you asking?
Ā Holly Raiche:(Sorry - good example)
Ā John Laprise:On Law Enforcement: that's fine but that's a governmental requirement not and a separate rationale for data collection
Ā John Laprise:Agreed Greg
Ā John Laprise:not a foregone conclusion
Ā Holly Raiche:In fact, the issue has been discussed for endless hours - over endless years.Ā @ John - that's the issue
Ā Greg Shatan:I will say that ICANN has not covered itself in glory with their interactions with the EDPB, Art. 29, etc.Ā So the āwrong wayā is unfortunately still a possibility.
Ā Tanya Tropina:interests or purposes?
Ā Tanya Tropina:well anyway I guess we will discuss this on EPDP anyway :-)
Ā Alan Greenberg:@TT, it is ICANN's PURPOSE that is driven by the interests of other supporting that putpose.
Ā John Laprise:yes, it is legitimate interest HOWEVER legitimate interest includes a delicate balancing test between the individual privacy interests of the data subject and the data controller: legitimate interest is not a magic wand
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Word Doc is attached to agenda
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:those are legitimate interests that happen to be ICANN purposes
Ā Tanya Tropina:Alan, fine, but am afraid that some of the examples are rather the examples of conflated purposes and that's what EDPB asked ICANN not to do.
Ā Tanya Tropina:when it's ICANN's legitimate interest, fine.
Ā John Laprise:I'm just particularly wary having spent so much time on GDPR with my day job
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:I lost the sound
Ā Greg Shatan:The legitimate interests of third parties is not limited to ICANN.
Ā Eduardo Diaz NARALO:Are we obligated to answerĀ using all the boxes?
Ā Claudia Ruiz:@Hadia - would you like a dial out?
Ā Nadira AL-Araj:Good suggestion JZ is to pick the most contraversy points and state ALAC position.
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):And remember this is th INITIAL Report not the soon to publish Suplimentary and then FINAL one
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):all still subject to PC as well
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):26 Sept
Ā Greg Shatan:After comments close in a WG, the staff tends to cut up the responses and chart them by topic.Ā So itās worthwhile to answer the way we have.Ā
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):NO further extensions !!!!!
Ā Greg Shatan:As good as staff is, they donāt do as well going on a āscavenger huntā for position statements in comments.
Ā Holly Raiche:@ Greg - useful for the WG, but for ALAC - it would be much more helpful to identifyĀ what our main issues are and what we think
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:We can ask Alan if this could be ratified post deadline?
Ā Greg Shatan:Understood, @Holly, and I agree that a āGuide for the Perplexedā is necessary to get decent responses from ALAC.
Ā Greg Shatan:Our submission, though, needs to work for the WG.
Ā Maureen Hilyard:+1 Greg
Ā Greg Shatan:I like Alanās overarching positions!
Ā Greg Shatan:āgTLD minimizationā :-)
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Ok will change to comment mode
Ā Holly Raiche:The reason I want something overarching is both for us (not everyone will have read every question) andĀ Ā for the WG
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:+ 1 alan
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Sorry you missed me
Ā Greg Shatan:If we donāt answer each question, it will be seen as āno viewā by ALAC.
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):NO
Ā Jonathan Zuck:so you took your own hand down?
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):not now I am in two other callsĀ I was only in 1 other when I asked to jum the que quiuckly before the dial out
Ā Jonathan Zuck:I didn't realize. sorry.
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):NP
Ā Eduardo Diaz NARALO:@Greg: we should add to each blank box the following: "Intentionally left blank" or " No comment"
Ā Alan Greenberg:Olivier, I said that we cannot say we have strong views about something and then have indiv answers that straddle the wall.
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Board decision related to .Amazon: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_board-2Dmaterial_resolutions-2D2018-2D09-2D16-2Den-232.d&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=CXERzIws_vaPY8WrLB9yz2PICpecEh3yA9MaabnyyBk&m=3L_clmtAlFqYtvOA7tv8ABbf8V6f6RBYxfu066qk9fQ&s=_WbZ78R889ImLiSDzEb6ztdW-cqRl8-DZYk3iFLC2KY&e=
Ā Greg Shatan:This could be used to resolve contention sets generally.
Ā Nadira AL-Araj:sharing a string could be win-win situation
Ā Greg Shatan:I donāt think ICANN should be running games of chance.
Ā Greg Shatan:Those arenāt the only 2 choices...
Ā Greg Shatan:Of course, a meritocratic method could end up looking like Community Priority Evaluations.... :-(
Ā Greg Shatan:That said, I would want to explore merit-based methods for resolving contention sets.
Ā CW:@JZĀ I think we need to see the precise texts which determine the agreement beween Amazon (the company not the 'registry') and the regional entities in the Amazon basis. Wht are the long-term guarantees?
Ā Jonathan Zuck:NOT operational funding!
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:+1 Olivier
Ā Greg Shatan:On the merits, I remain firmly in favor of rounds.
Ā Jonathan Zuck:Greg, for evaluations?
Ā Greg Shatan:Though rounds can be implemented in a number of different ways (e.g., batching).
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:it is also likely to be more expensive for ICANN to have ongoing open applications without rounds
Ā Greg Shatan:For submission of applications, and for evaluations.
Ā Holly Raiche:On 'rounds',Ā I think our cncern can be expressed more as a way of enabling community applications - giving them some kind of preference.Ā And since having 'rounds' is how that is done, I think we back into supporting rounds - BECAUSE of the community applications
Ā Sebastien:I am in favor of rounds for applications submission and for evaluation but it can be split into various categories
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:another thing without rounds is that it's first come first served which might lead a race to purchase all common words, who knows, purchase the words, and then resell them a few months later. Speculation! Yippee!
Ā Greg Shatan:One change I would like to consider is having a transparent application basket.Ā No more āreveal day.ā
Ā Greg Shatan:Olivier ā Shall we encourage Top Level Domain Speculation?
Ā Greg Shatan:Even more than we already have?
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:@Greg: no
Ā Greg Shatan:<relieved>
Ā Dev Anand Teelucksingh:@Greg what do you mean transparent application basket - everyone sees the application when its filed and received by ICANN ?
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:because as with every uncontrolled speculation, it's a bubble that bursts and the one organisation that will burst then is ICANN
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:+1 SĆ©bastien I agree.
Ā Greg Shatan:@Dev, yes.
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:makes sense
Ā Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Agree with Sebastien, that's precisely what I think will happen
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:@greg: but good words are likely to be snatched from small participants
Ā Greg Shatan:Communities get to win the contention sets though.
Ā CW:@JZĀ +1 on translparency
Ā Greg Shatan:So they would benefit if they saw that a faux community application was already filed.
Ā Jonathan Zuck:right
Ā Greg Shatan:Otherwise, they are left to object.
Ā Greg Shatan:Our position is opaque.
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Workspace for ICANN Seeking Community Feedback on Proposed Unified Access Model: https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/JXMeBg
Ā Tanya Tropina:Greg I wonder if you are morally conflicted on this issue or not :-)
Ā Jonathan Zuck:@Tanya, he has a viewpoint as does everyone else. I think calling it a "moral" conflict seems a bit inconsistant. Let's just air everyone's view
Ā Tanya Tropina:Jonathan, that was rather a joke, Greg knows me for quite a long time not to take this personally. But sorry if I offended anyone here
Ā John Laprise:I'm good.
Ā Greg Shatan:Tanya, you did not offend me.Ā Quite the opposite.
Ā Tanya Tropina:Greg :-) thank you.
Ā Greg Shatan:Dispassion from all sides would be good.Ā A rational discussion is always welcome!
Ā Greg Shatan:Not hearing.
Ā Greg Shatan:OCL???
Ā Greg Shatan:We may have a broken bridge.
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Greg, we are speaking, would you likea a dial out?
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:can you hear Alan now?
Ā Greg Shatan:No.
Ā Tanya Tropina:yes we can
Ā Tanya Tropina:(me can)
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:the bridge works
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:yeswe can
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:I just tested it
Ā Tanya Tropina:I hear everything on AC with no problem
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:we might have lost Greg on AC
Ā Greg Shatan:Iān hearing JZ
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:JZ is on AC
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:I am hearing him on both too
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:Alan is on phone
Ā Claudia Ruiz:we are dialing out to you Greg
Ā Claudia Ruiz:Greg is now on the bridge
Ā John Laprise:I'm not a supporter on IP interests, per se. Trademarks and copyright/patents are very different.
Ā Greg Shatan:I can hear! I can hear!
Ā Greg Shatan:John ā good point.Ā IP is a grouping of convenience.
Ā John Laprise:...and trade secrets are a horse of another colour entirely
Ā Alan Greenberg:Ultimately regardless of who "designs" the model, it will have to be GDPR compliant. Why waste time talking about that?
Ā Jonathan Zuck:Indeed
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:@Alan: do we have an idea when this is going to be discussed in the EPDP?
Ā Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Unfortunately, have to leave the call - take care all
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:@Olivier not soon
Ā CW:Good night. Today began here at 04.00 UTC. Enough. Thakyou Jonathan, colleagues and staff. CW
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Night CW
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:Good night CW
Ā Olivier MJ CrĆ©pin-Leblond:Thanks @Hadia. Isn't this the key for GDPR topic? The access model? Isn't this the most challenging thing?
Ā Alan Greenberg:over time....
Ā John Laprise:Agreed Alan
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):I hear you Alan ;-)
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:Good luck with that alan
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:and Cheryl
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):my 0400 seems log ago and now I am still in 3 calls at once
Ā Holly Raiche:@ JONATHAN - FINE BY ME
Ā John Laprise:KSK: This is a hard thing the members need to use the KSK tool to check to see their ISPs are compliant
Ā John Laprise:and then contact their ISPs
Ā John Laprise:But support
Ā Jonathan Zuck:we don't need to diagnose but help announce
Ā John Laprise:SSAC spoke with GAC and was a dead end
Ā Holly Raiche:what about the ccTLDs as wll
Ā John Laprise:we need to disseminate the KSK rollover check tool SSAC was sending out
Ā Holly Raiche:Maybe something to the list - not sure there is time now
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:+ 1Eduardo
Ā Jonathan Zuck:I don't think we need to "check" any more but inform that it's happening
Ā John Laprise:We do need to check: it will help identify which ISPs will fail
Ā Jonathan Zuck:John, can you organize a call on this?
Ā Eduardo Diaz NARALO:A prmomo flyer will do. But it has to be simple to understand (challenge!) and to the point
Ā John Laprise:It's on the SoMe WG agenda
Ā Holly Raiche:Good idea Ed
Ā Eduardo Diaz NARALO:JZ +1
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:Great idea
Ā John Laprise:Check with ICANN communication?
Ā John Laprise:Evin?
Ā Holly Raiche:@ John - goood idea
Ā Evin Erdogdu:@John sure will check, they have deadlines in advance of ICANN63 but we can certainly make the request.
Ā John Laprise:TY :)!
Ā Evin Erdogdu:It would be a tight deadline for 11 October but will check
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Thanks everyone again great to see this WG progress things so well... even when you onlyĀ have a fraction of my attention/brain...
Ā Evin Erdogdu:You're welcome!
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:Thank you all
Ā Jonathan Zuck:not sure we need to hit that deadline. this is just about spreading information that will be needed regardless of when it happens
Ā Jonathan Zuck:that's fine
Ā Avri Doria:bye
Ā Hadia Elminiawi:bye
Ā Tanya Tropina:thanks all - bye
Ā Evin Erdogdu:Thank you all!
Ā Claudia Ruiz:bye all!
Ā Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Bye for now then ... Onto my next call...
Ā Maureen Hilyard:Bye all