CCWG ACCT Meeting #64 (27 October @ 19:00 UTC)
- Brenda Brewer
- Aleksey Khapchenko
Attendees:
Members: Alan Greenberg, Bruce Tonkin, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Eberhard Lisse, Fiona Asonga, Izumi Okutani, James Bladel, Jordan Carter, Jorge Villa, Julia Wolman, Julie Hammer, Leon Sanchez, Mathieu Weill, Par Brumark, Robin Gross, Roelof Meijer, Samantha Eisner, Steve DelBianco, Suzanne, Radell, Tijani Ben Jemaa (20)
Participants: Aarti Bhavana, Allan McGillivray, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Arun Sukumar, Avri Doria, Brenden Kuerbis, Chris Wilson, Christopher Wilkinson, David Maher, David McAuley, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Guru Acharya, Jeff Neuman, Jonathan Zuck, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Matthew Shears, Paul Szyndler, Pedro Ivo Silva, Phil Buckingham, Sabine Meyer, Sebastien Bachollet, Seun Ojediji, Tatiano Tropina, Tracy Hackshaw (27)
Legal Counsel: Holly Gregory, Michael Clark, Nancy McGlamery, Rosemary Fei (4)
Staff: Alice Jansen. Brenda Brewer, Hillary Jett, Grace Abuhamad, Karen Mulberry, Marika Konings, Theresa Swinehart, Trang Nguyen, Yuko Green
Apologies: Malcolm Hutty, Martin Boyle, Alice Munyua, Olga Cavalli
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Transcript
Recording
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p7eyzxydp3v/
The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ccwg-acct-27oct15-en.mp3
Agenda
1. Welcome, Roll call & SoI
2. Principles: Mission, Core Values & Commitments (tentative)
3. Steps toward Chartering Organizations' endorsement of our proposal
- Process dictated by Charter
- CCWG-ACCT Process & Timeline
4. AOB
Notes
These high-level notes are designed to help you navigate through content of the call and do not substitute in any way the transcript.
- Kavouss Arasteh - Avri Doria - Christopher Wilkinson not in AC
- IGF will be addressed in A.O.B.
- Principles agenda item is postponed
Steps toward Chartering Organizations' endorsement of our proposal
We will submit our recommendations to Chartering Organizations when posting them for public comment.
Refer to paragraphs SO/AC support for the Draft Proposal and Supplemental Draft Proposal from Charter https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/acctcrosscomm/pages/97715206/Charter
Per our timeline we will submit our draft proposal in November. We need to prepare SO/ACs for this proposal so that we may be in a position to assess whether our draft proposal has been approved by all or whether we need to issue a supplemental proposal which in turn might lead to adoption during month of January. Intersessional might be an option, as needed by COs. CoChairs have been invited to SO/AC leadership call this week to explain timeline and raise awareness for timeline responses. The plan will be to organize SO/AC specific webinars.
Process dictated by Charter
Feedback:
- Process could be prolonged if SO/AC approves November report but others don't or if approves section of it.
--> An option for COs will be to determine what they can adopt and what is unacceptable. See supplemental paragraph.
Report should highlight number of recommendations. We should clarify that recommendations are not for "cherry picking" but it is possible that some recommendations will not be adopted by some.
- Consider approval table for recommendations.
--> We will need to have clarification on whether endorsement/no objection. We will need to refer to precedent.
ACTION ITEM - CoChairs to examine precedent of CO approval process - positive/negative/abstention/absence of negotation
ACTION ITEM - CoChairs to explore option of a tabular form for COs approval.
CCWG-ACCT Process & Timeline
ICANN staff have secured resources to take on writing duty. Susannah Gray has been given proof of concept assignment on budget. A second resource is currently being investigated. Key principles for interaction will be according to Dublin: terms of reference, bullet points of what matters in terms of content as well as reference materials. This will be under supervision of Work Parties. They will be given opportunity to review. Approval of documents will be withing CCWG. We will encourage to focus on whether document reflects choices of group and not focus on wordsmithing. We are working on timeline with expected deliverables so we have visibility on expectations.
Feedback:
- Audience of report?
--> Summary of 20 pages intended for broad audience (political level etc). Core proposal will be SO/AC, ICANN community targeted. These are two levels of audience.
- Remove SO/ACs, acronyms etc in first component.
AOB
Suggestion to meet at IGF
These discussions would be held in informal environment and would not entail decision-making. They would enable us to iron out details in advance of group discussion. You are invited to fill in a form to determine who can attend so that we may make a decision as to whether or not we can hold the "gathering" - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1diDLY_uFmvqkpPmI858MfRx4_0FMTGYLMuDFm3lVT68/edit?usp=sharing
- James Gannon will be looking into RP option.
Feedback:
- No harm in having gathering. Suggest having a report of communications at IGF to show progress to "non-ICANNers"
- Use this opportunity to report /communicate to IGF on accountability. Not appropriate to have CCWG-ACCT discussions - decision-making without appropriate opportunity to join.
Disruptive mails on list
Continue work in a constructive way and in compliance with standards of behavior. Posting rights have been restricted. Suggestion to have restriction lifted in two weeks time and to revert to permanent restriction if still disruptive post deadline.
Action Items
ACTION ITEM - CoChairs to examine precedent of CO approval process - positive/negative/abstention/absence of negotation
ACTION ITEM - CoChairs to explore option of a tabular form for COs approval.
Documents
Adobe Chat
Brenda Brewer: (10/27/2015 13:35) Welcome all to CCWG Accountability Meeting #64 on 27 October! Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/expected-standards
FIONA ASONGA (ASO): (13:56) Hi Everyone
Sabine Meyer: (13:57) Hello everyone!
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (13:57) Hello everyone !
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (13:57) Hope you all had uneventful trips home, and recovered a bit
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (13:58) Hi everyone!
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (13:59) Hello everyone
David McAuley (RySG): (14:01) very feint
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:01) yes feint with echo
Aarti Bhavana: (14:01) It's very soft.
David McAuley (RySG): (14:02) little better
Greg Shatan: (14:02) Hello, all. So ... what's everybody been doing the last week or two?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:02) Yes better
David McAuley (RySG): (14:02) yes, better
Aarti Bhavana: (14:02) Yes
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (14:02) ....sounds like a bathroom....
Sabine Meyer: (14:02) Just relaxing, Greg, nothing much really....
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:02) Hello, everyone.
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (14:02) there is some hall effect
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:02) And you, Greg, long time no see, or read... ;-)
Arun Sukumar: (14:02) hello all
James Bladel: (14:03) Leon in an echo-chamber.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:03) hi all!
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:03) Greetings from San Francisco, all!
Greg Shatan: (14:03) Leon's fallen down a well!
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:03) Who pushed Leon ?
Arun Sukumar: (14:03) leon is probably doing a pre-recorded message
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:04) who is capturing Leon??!! :P
Sabine Meyer: (14:04) Maybe he brought home inadequate toy offerings ;)
Arun Sukumar: (14:04) lol
Anne Aikman-Scalese - IPC: (14:04) FREE LEON! FREE LEON! CHAIR CAPTURE!
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (14:05) :S
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (14:05) :D
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:05) surely it was the GAC or the GNSO... :P
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:05) or both...
Cheryl langdon-Orr: (14:05) LOL
Sabine Meyer: (14:05) ....pssssst Jorge....
Arun Sukumar: (14:05) hahaha Leon
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (14:06) LOL
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (14:06) Sorry for the echo. I'm in an improvised office that I had to get as I was on the road!
Tatiana Tropina: (14:07) office in the well, Leon!
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (14:07) Indeed Tatiana!
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:07) On "principles: mission, etc" - would it be possible to have the new document distributed well in advance before the CCWG discussion?
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:08) apols for lateness
Sabine Meyer: (14:09) You missed our dramatic attempt to free Leon from the bottom of a non-descript well, Jordan!
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:09) *mind boggles*
Sabine Meyer: (14:09) ...you had to be there...
Cheryl langdon-Orr: (14:10) Yes and he may still be there ð
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (14:10) we have 6 Chartering Orgs, by the way. All the ACs and SOs except RSSAC
Greg Shatan: (14:11) Improvised office = shipping container.
Arun Sukumar: (14:11) Mathieu, to clarify: so it is possible that a chartering org accept the proposal in part?
Cheryl langdon-Orr: (14:11) ð
Greg Shatan: (14:12) Arun, not in the end.
Arun Sukumar: (14:13) ok
matthew shears: (14:13) hopefully we will avoid the supplemental option through extensive discussions and upodates wihtin the SOs and ACs
Alan Greenberg: (14:14) When is AC/SO Chair call scheduled?
David McAuley (RySG): (14:14) Mathieu, when will we hear more about the professional writers and the plan to use them?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:14) My next item ?
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:14) @Mathieu: what are the options for the charering orgs? 1) adopt 2) not adopt? does not adopt mean a decision not to adopt or a lack of adoption? and may adoption be circumscribed to specific recs?
Aarti Bhavana: (14:14) Will these webinars be open to all?
David McAuley (RySG): (14:14) ok thanks
Alan Greenberg: (14:14) At what time (sorry, still on vacation and way behind on mail)
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:14) 13 UTC
Anne Aikman-Scalese - IPC: (14:15) QUESTION: Mathieu - Jorge has a question in the chat.
Arun Sukumar: (14:18) yup
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:19) I believe it should be an up or down vote
Phil Buckingham: (14:19) Mattheiu - what if there a 3:3 split amongst COrg s
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:19) if at all possible
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (14:19) +1 jordan. too hard to sync everything otherwise
matthew shears: (14:19) + 1 Jordan
James Bladel: (14:19) @Jordan - there is certainly a case to be made for dependencies between the recommendations. The report should be viewed as a package, rather than a menu.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:19) "yes" or "no because x, do more work"
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:19) @Mathieu: "non adoption" is not clear. Does it mean a positive decision NOT to adopt the recommendation?
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:20) or does it mean also a lack of a positive decision to adopt the recom?
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:21) @Mathieu: we would need to have clarity on this
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:21) in my view anthing that isn't a "no" is an "ok"
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:22) but I agree that clarity would be needed on this
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:22) thanks - work in progress, then
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (14:23) Note: our CCWG charter does not require unanimous support of all chartering orgs as a condition to forward to ICANN board.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:23) Good point, Steve.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:24) @Jordan: "adoption" seems to require a positive act of approval. And "non adoption" seems to require some motivation, reasoning and "dissent" is used somewhere to describe it. But it might be that a chartering org has "no position" on a given recommendation: and we would need to be clear that this third option is available and/or clear under the charter
Phil Buckingham: (14:24) +1 Steve . Thanks
Alice Jansen: (14:24) Refer to http://www.iana.org/about/informational-booklet.pdf to view work Susannah has done in the past
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:24) https://www.linkedin.com/in/susannahgray
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:25) @Steve: that is interesting. Could you please cut and paste the relevant parts of the charter?
matthew shears: (14:25) The Charter does allow for modification should the CCWG decide that it is not clear in terms of the adoption process
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (14:26) @Jorge "In the event one or more of the chartering organizations do(es) not support (parts of) the (Supplemental) Proposal(s), the Board Report shall also clearly indicate the part(s) of the (Supplemental) Final Proposal(s) which are fully supported and the parts which not, and which of the chartering organizations dissents, to the extent this is feasible. "
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:28) great, thanks @Steve... I had it in my mind, but could not find the precise place.... this is important for all to know
Julia Wolman, GAC Denmark: (14:29) + 1 Mathieu. A short summary understandable to politicians etc. is crucial
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:29) We need vast amount of work on explaining our proposal in English not in ICANNese
Phil Buckingham: (14:29) Good point , Bruce
matthew shears: (14:29) agree Jordan
matthew shears: (14:29) will help with endorsements as well
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:29) one specific example: we have to stop talking about a Single Designator, which is confusing and almost misleading
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:29) ICANNese is at least as bad as legalese.
Sabine Meyer: (14:30) it's sort of legalese²
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:30) As someone who speaks both, I can say ICANNese is worse
Julia Wolman, GAC Denmark: (14:30) Exactly Jordan!
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:30) at least Legalese has reference to a common agreed framework of meaning
David McAuley (RySG): (14:31) Thank you Mathieu
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:31) (most of the time)
Alan Greenberg: (14:31) I need to drop off now. Bye all.
Alice Jansen: (14:31) Staff is investigated a second writing resource as Mathieu indicated.
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:31) As one who only speaks legalese, I didn't want to say that, Robin and Jordan, but I agree -- ICANNese is worse!
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:31) good news, Mathieu.
Greg Shatan: (14:32) Does this mean I can finally say that I'm bilingual?
David McAuley (RySG): (14:32) Leon sounds closer to top of well
Cheryl langdon-Orr: (14:32) slightly
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:32) You sounds fine, Leon. Thank goodness.
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:32) *sound*
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:32) if he behaves well, we will release him :P
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:32) Will you release him totally or just recommendation by recommendation ? ;-)
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:33) let's negotiate that and reach a consensus :D
David McAuley (RySG): (14:33) On good behavior, but could be put back
Greg Shatan: (14:33) Legalese has dialects. Regulatory law resembles ICANNese in its extensive use of impenetrable acronyms.
Greg Shatan: (14:34) "Club Accountability"?
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:34) Contest to name the Sole Designator?
Cheryl langdon-Orr: (14:34) ð
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:36) "The Empowered Community Model" ;-)
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:36) I don't think we should call it a model in the end
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:36) we should in our report have a range of models we explored but what we end up with isn't a model, it's the thingy
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:36) Let's get a sponsor : The Red Bull Accountability Club
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:36) ("thingy" needs some word)
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:36) drop "model" off the end
Sabine Meyer: (14:36) +1 Robin
Brett Schaefer: (14:37) Jordan, it is a model of confusion
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:37) soemone else suggested Community Guardian, but that feels wrong to me
Sabine Meyer: (14:37) but Red Bull Accountability Club is more in the vein of "truth in advertising"
Avri Doria: (14:37) our accountabilty thingy
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:38) "guardian" sounds like there are children that need protecting.
Sabine Meyer: (14:39) we might also have to pay Marvel royalties ;)
Farzaneh Badii: (14:39) how did everyone manage to change their text color on adobe!
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:39) Farzi, top, right corner of the chat box
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:39) You have options on top roght of chat box in AC room
Brett Schaefer: (14:39) option in the upper right
Sabine Meyer: (14:39) right hand corner of chat pod, select "my chat color" in the drop down menu there
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (14:40) I will be at IGF in Brazil and feel strongly that we should gather CCWG participants there
Farzaneh Badii: (14:40) yes option is good. using it ... i feel like I am reading a doc with many different track changes
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:40) Is there any IGF session where our work should be presented ?
Avri Doria: (14:40) in a snese we did not pick a new model. rather we are just reinforcing the current model. so maybe just Enanced Accountabity Plan
matthew shears: (14:40) I think it would be useful to gather there
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:41) sounds like a good idea, Leon
Greg Shatan: (14:41) Bars do not have agendas....
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (14:41) (sorry, no mic) I will inform soon the exact name of the meeting room
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (14:41) of course it would. Pedro, thanks for arranging it.
Avri Doria: (14:41) or rather not to overleass EAB, we coudl go for Accountability Enhancement Plan AEP
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:41) I just wish I could be there with you
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (14:41) or I should say "gathering room"
Avri Doria: (14:41) not to overload EAP ...
Sabine Meyer: (14:41) as long as you dont call it "well", Pedro...
matthew shears: (14:42) or just "enhanced accountability" EA
David McAuley (RySG): (14:42) Good point, Sabine
Avri Doria: (14:42) you know, most of us have to work for a living.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:42) don't you have a "gathering beach"?
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:42) The entity that holds the various rights and community powers could be called "Community Input Vehicle" or CIV -- or substitute another word for "input"
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (14:42) hahahaha...we do as well, Jorge...
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:42) If we can get remote participation, I think it would be much more inclusive and less problematic. But I would just use it as a discussion opportunity. We understand no decisions can be made.
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (14:43) +1 Robin
Phil Buckingham: (14:43) + Robin
Avri Doria: (14:43) hell, we don't even make decsions when we are in formal meetings. i would nto worry about us making decsions.
David McAuley (RySG): (14:43) Yes, thank you Pedro
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:43) COmmunity Standing Vehicle
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:43) +1 Robin
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:43) CSV
matthew shears: (14:43) sounds like a Honda
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (14:43) OBVIOUSLY no decisions can be made. Why are we even having this conversation between people who have been working together for a yeard?!
matthew shears: (14:44) + 1 Jonathan
CW: (14:44) Good night everyone. Talk again soon, no doubt. CW
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (14:44) Standing --> Empowerment, CEV?
Avri Doria: (14:44) oooops, i should not have types h*ll in that last message. apologies.
matthew shears: (14:45) so is there a master plan for the work going forward? perhaps I missed it
Greg Shatan: (14:45) @JZ: The initial email + concerns about being left out of a conversation that significantly shapes future work....
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:45) @matthew : work in progress. Expect update in a couple of days
matthew shears: (14:45) thanks Mathieu
Brett Schaefer: (14:46) General question, did I hear that the transparency discussion was delayed because Becky could not make it?
Greg Shatan: (14:46) Leon, thank you for your efforts in "cleaning up" the list.
CW: (14:46) León, thankyou. that was necessary this time for now. CW
Greg Shatan: (14:46) Seems like an intractable problem to me. Sadly.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:46) @Brett : no, this was the core values, mission agenda item
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:46) @Brett: it was the discussion on "Mission etc" which was delayed
Greg Shatan: (14:47) There would need to be "probation".
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:49) FWI: There is an IGF session scheduled on 12 November (4-6pm Brasilia time) on the accountability of Internet governance venues. This is a follow-up from a session on this topic at IGF 2014.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:49) Farzi and myself are organing this session.
Avri Doria: (14:50) i wonder who is going to represent our work. hope it is someone who actually understands it.
Avri Doria: (14:50) well if is is you two, it is probably safe.
Cheryl langdon-Orr: (14:50) yeah super short call today ð thanks everyone talk again soon bye for now....
David McAuley (RySG): (14:50) Thank you co-chairs, good bye all
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (14:50) bye everyone!
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (14:50) Thanx!
matthew shears: (14:50) thanks!
David McAuley (RySG): (14:50) thanks staff as well
Cheryl langdon-Orr: (14:50) bye
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:50) thanks and bye!
Julia Wolman, GAC Denmark: (14:50) bye
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (14:50) Bye
Farzaneh Badii: (14:50) bye everyone
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:50) Bye everyone