Sub-group Members:   Andrew Mack, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Erich Schweighofer, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Harold Arcos, Herb Waye, John Laprise, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Markus Kummer, Niels ten Oever, Shreedeep Rayamajhi, Tatiana Tropina   (15)

Observers/Guests: Staff:  Bernard Turcotte, Brenda Brewer  (2)

Apologies:  

 ** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **

Transcript

• Word Doc
• PDF

Recording

• Adobe Connect Replay

• mp3 Replay

Agenda

1. Administrivia

Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc

2. Continued First Reading (of two) of the Considerations document

3. AOB

Documents

• ConsiderationsAfterMarch22ndMeeting

Notes

Notes (includes relevant text from chat):

15 participants at start of call

1. Administrivia - Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc

Niels ten Oever - Changes to SOI? (none). Any issues to agenda? (none)

2. Continued First Reading (of two) of the Considerations document

Niels ten Oever - (continuing where we left off last week - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rDYyuXacrSYDtlSK5JqNQe7XOX2LbM86AzfDay8zpoE/edit )

Niels ten Oever - (strating from The Policies and frameworks.....- reading text of proposal).

Para 1 comments? (none).

Para 2 comments?

Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): As per Niels, to be added at the end of this paragraph:  "Human Rights should not be selectively analyzed since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated."

Kavouss Arasteh - re INAPPROPRIATE suggest use another word - DOES NOT SEEM TO BE APPROPRIATE HERE or NOT RELEVANT HERE.

Tatiana Tropina: "not relevant in the context of this FoI"

Tatiana Tropina: or doesn’t not fit for the purpose of this FoE

Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): Agree with Tatiana's suggestion on this

Tatiana Tropina: I can live with this, agree with Kavouss to replace

Anne Aikman-Scalese - my suggestion above seems to go somewhere else?

Niels ten Oever - correct 2 paras down.

Greg Shatan - re INNAPROPRIATE would prefer to simply add HERE. Re AAS suggestion - better to say it here? cannot just apply suggestion to HRIA - so should probably be here and not later or here and later.

John Laprise: Agree w/Greg

Niels ten Oever: Text to which Greg and Anne are referring:

Niels ten Oever: Human Rights should not be selectively analyzed since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated. could agree to put it either or in both.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): is "analyzed" the right word?

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): or should we use "considered"?

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): "should not be considered in isolation, since they are..."

Tatiana Tropina - NOT APPROPRIATE -

Niels ten Oever: The subgroup notes that the word “commitment” used in this sentence is not appropriate of interpreting the Human Rights Core Value.

Tatiana Tropina: in the conext of interpreting HR CV

Kavouss Arasteh -  Do agree with GS word. Support JC proposal.

Niels ten Oever: The subgroup notes that the word “commitment” used in this sentence is not quite appropriate for interpreting the Human Rights Core Value. Seems to be acceptable (no objections).

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): full text for the non-cherry-picking: "Human Rights should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated."

Niels ten Oever - JC text could be added at the end.

Anne Aikman-Scalese - fine with JC language. Also like TT languae before.

Tatiana Tropina: I am comfortable with no cherry picking clause. I would avoid proportionality as it's up to courts and it is a very complex issue - we have to get to the weeds and will never come back. But am comfortable with cherry picking.

Greg Shatan - re JC text - need to say EACH or individual - best to try using the language in Annex 6 which is consensus language.

Andrew Mack: individual human rights should not be considered separately

Andrew Mack: ?

Tatiana Tropina: Individual human rights has double meaning in this context

Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): Good point Tatiana

Tatiana Tropina: Might be considered as human rights of an individual

Andrew Mack: yes Tatiana

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): "discrete" is so awful?

Tatiana Tropina: "No specific human right shall be considered in isolation"

Greg Shatan - that would work.

Kavouss Arasteh - do not understand why we need specific. Disagree with this. Agree with PARTICULAR but not SPECIFIC.

Niels ten Oever: Particular Human Rights should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

Andrew Mack: either seems ok to me

Niels ten Oever - Next para "consistent with ICANN's existing processes and...."

Kavouss Arasteh - re gNSO portion just "allow" seems wrong should be " should or shall or must allow".

Tatiana Tropina: expected to allow

Tatiana Tropina: me likes.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  it does already allow by the way

Anne Aikman-Scalese - re CLO because the PDP says it must already.

Markus Kummer - since the Bylaws say Allow lets keep it as is.

Kavouss Arasteh - are we discussing the FOI or the PDP. If we use the PDP then let us quote and identify it.

Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): We could say "The GNSO Policy Development Process" provides for

Greg Shatan - Agree with AAS.

Tatiana Tropina: I agree with Anne

Tatiana Tropina: it should address Kavouss concern, too - no?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): yup

Kavouss Arasteh - Agree with AAS suggestion.

Neils ten Oever - next para "consider how the interpretation and implementation....".

Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): One suggestion here to avoid the issue of "principles of proportionality" expressed in the drafting team is to do this:"HRIAs should avoid "cherry-picking" and should honor the principle that Human Rights are indivisible and interdependent."

Kavouss Arasteh - cannot understand AAS proposal - why do we need this?

Tatiana Tropina: I like Anne's compromise. Honoring the invisibility and interdependency is ol

Anne Aikman-Scalese - could agree with KA - we could go back to the original language.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): could we refer back to the language we agreed just before?

tatiana Tropina - like AAS compromise - uncertain about the word "principal". will put my suggestion from the chat.

Niels ten Oever: HRIA should consider not consider Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

Niels ten Oever: HRIA should not consider Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): HRIA should be consistent with the principle that specific Human Rights should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

Tatiana Tropina: yes we can do that as well - Anne?

Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): should not consider "particular" Human rights

Niels ten Oever: HRIA should not consider particular Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

Niels ten Oever: HRIAs should not consider particular Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

Tatiana Tropina: yes am very happy too. I can't believe my ears and eyes

Anne Aikam-Scalese - Drafting team note that there is a need to have a mechanism to consider how to address HR violations. Uncertain where it goes.

Greg Shatan - where "policies and processes ICANN needs to implement..."

Niels ten Oever - lets take this to the drafting team and review on our call next week.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): agree with Niels

Greg Shatan: +1

Kavouss Arasteh - Re from GAC meeting - do not see all SOACs the same and not pick on GAc only.

Niels ten Oever - thought it was fixed - if not lets discuss on list. KA please send to list. Ajourned.

Chat Transcript

 Brenda Brewer:Welcome to Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #24 on 27 March 2017 @ 19:00 UTC!

  Brenda Brewer:Please mute your phone when not speaking by pressing *6 (star 6).  *6 will also unmute.  Thank you!

  Shreedeep Rayamajhi:thank u

  Shreedeep Rayamajhi:6

  Shreedeep Rayamajhi:okay

  Kavouss Arasteh:Dear Brenda,

  Brenda Brewer:Hello Kavouss!

  Kavouss Arasteh:las kindly note that I am waiting for fdial up with Number +43 1534040,room

  Brenda Brewer:yes, I have that information and will be calling you very soon.  Thank you!

  Brenda Brewer:Kavouss, the operator is calling you soon.  Thanks!

  Herb Waye Ombuds:Greetings all... nice to see the Anti-harassment and participation rules pop up before signing in :-)

  Markus Kummer:Hi everyone

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):good evening!

  Herb Waye Ombuds:Foggy Ottawa too

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:No

  Niels ten Oever:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rDYyuXacrSYDtlSK5JqNQe7XOX2LbM86AzfDay8zpoE/edit

  Greg Shatan:Hello, all.  I'm on audio but I'll be off AC from time to time.  I'll try to use the "away" symbol for that.

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):HI all - sorry to be late (client call just ended.)

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):As per Niels, to be added at the end of this paragraph:  "Human Rights should not be selectively analyzed since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated."

  Niels ten Oever:@Anne - don't you think that comes further down?

  Tatiana Tropina:"not relevant in the context of this FoI"

  Tatiana Tropina:or doesn not fit for the purpose of this FoE

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Agree with Tatiana's suggestion on this

  Tatiana Tropina:I can live with this, agree with Kavouss to replace

  Andrew Mack:Hi all.   Apologies for being absent recently -- tons of work

  John Laprise:Agree w/Greg

  Niels ten Oever:Text to which Greg and Anne are referring:

  Niels ten Oever:Human Rights should not be selectively analyzed since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):is "analyzed" the right word?

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):or should we use "considered"?

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):"should not be considered in isolation, since they are..."

  Niels ten Oever:The subgroup notes that the word “commitment” used in this sentence is not appropriate of interpreting the Human Rights Core Value.

  Tatiana Tropina:in the conext of interpreting HR CV

  Tatiana Tropina::)

  Tatiana Tropina:I hear silence :(

  Andrew Mack:seem to have lost audio

  Niels ten Oever:The subgroup notes that the word “commitment” used in this sentence is not quite appropriate for interpreting the Human Rights Core Value.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):full text for the non-cherry-picking: "Human Rights should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated."

  Tatiana Tropina:it was a new hand - an old hand was before me

  Tatiana Tropina:yeah.

  Greg Shatan:I appear to have been cut off.,

  Tatiana Tropina:yeah. Greg we better to confirm with you - get on the bridge

  Brenda Brewer:Greg, see private message please.

  Greg Shatan:Brenda, I'ver responded.

  Greg Shatan:I'm back.

  Tatiana Tropina:I am confortable with no cherry picking clause. I would avoid proportionality as it's up to courts and it is a very complex issue - we have to get to the weeds and will never come back. But am comfortable with cherry picking

  Tatiana Tropina:unbelievable. Another paragraph :)

  Tatiana Tropina:Niels, better to confirm with Greg

  Tatiana Tropina:otherwise we will bring the same issues up again and again ...

  Niels ten Oever:OK

  Tatiana Tropina:I know - timing but better to spend 3 min on this than another hour later because we haven't agreed...

  Andrew Mack:I think Greg is right about the language

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):discrete human rights should not be considered in isolation, since...

  Tatiana Tropina:No individual doesn't suit

  Tatiana Tropina:double meaning

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I like "individual Human Rights"

  Tatiana Tropina:No Human rights shall be considered in isolation from otehr human rights

  Andrew Mack:individual human rights should not be considered separately

  Andrew Mack:?

  Tatiana Tropina:Individual human rights has double meaning in this context

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Good point Tatiana

  Tatiana Tropina:Might be considered as human rights of an individual

  Andrew Mack:yes Tatiana

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):"discrete" is so awful?

  Tatiana Tropina:"No spoecific human right shall be considered in isolation"

  Tatiana Tropina:NO specific human right

  Andrew Mack:no specific human right should be considered separately

  Andrew Mack:?

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):"Specifc" does work better.

  Niels ten Oever:No specific Human Rights should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Tatiana Tropina:yeah Greg

  Andrew Mack:specific is good

  Tatiana Tropina:that's my case

  Tatiana Tropina:in isolation from others?

  Tatiana Tropina:or just in isolation is ok

  Tatiana Tropina:otherwise it's redundancy

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):can we move on now please Neils

  Andrew Mack:maybe she agrees with him?

  Herb Waye Ombuds:Folks I have to cut out... I have an appointment in 30 minutes. Regards to all... Herb

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):bye Herb

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@Kavouss- Greg was cut off from the call.  That is the only reason I said this.

  Tatiana Tropina:it was my proposal

  Tatiana Tropina:i can explain

  Niels ten Oever:No specific Human Right should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):just be careful and not include a double-negation - the "no" at the start of the sentence is not needed...

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):I was happy with the text as previously noted  

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Agree with "No particular Human Right

  Niels ten Oever:Particular Human Rights should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Andrew Mack:either seems ok to me

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):"No particular Human Right should be considered in isolation

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:time check - 22 minutes left in call

  Tatiana Tropina:may be "should allow"?

  Markus Kummer:Provides for multistakeholder involvment

  Tatiana Tropina:are supoosed to allow?

  Tatiana Tropina:provides - YES

  Tatiana Tropina:If not supposed to allow

  Tatiana Tropina:sipposed to allow

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yes that works for me

  Tatiana Tropina:expected to allow

  Tatiana Tropina:me likes.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): it does already allow by the way

  Markus Kummer:provides is an objective description

  Tatiana Tropina:me OK.

  Greg Shatan:That makes it sound like the policy does not do that currently.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):indeed it does Anne

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):echo

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:bad echo?

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg, well the policy can change :O

  Kavouss Arasteh:echo echo

  Greg Shatan:markus please mute.

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):We could say "The GNSO Policy Development Process" provides for

  Tatiana Tropina:echo echo

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:time check - 14 minutes left

  Tatiana Tropina:I agree with Anne

  Tatiana Tropina:it should address Kavouss concern, too - no?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yup

  Tatiana Tropina:Thank you Anne :)

  Tatiana Tropina:let's go home :)

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):One suggestion here to avoid the issue of "principles of proportionality" expressed in the drafting team is to do this:"HRIAs should avoid "cherry-picking" and should honor the principle that Human Rights are indivisible and interdependent."

  Tatiana Tropina:I like Anne's compromise. Honoring the invisibility and interdependency is ol

  Tatiana Tropina:ok

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):could we refer back to the language we agreed just before?

  Niels ten Oever:HRIA should consider not consider Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Niels ten Oever:HRIA should not consider Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Tatiana Tropina:HRIAs should avoid  Human Rights "cherry-picking" and should honor the invisibiltiy and interdependency of human rights

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):HRIA should be consistent with the principle that specific Human Rights should not be considered in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Tatiana Tropina:yes we can do that as well - Anne?

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):should not consider "particular" Human rights

  Niels ten Oever:HRIA should consider not consider particular Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Niels ten Oever:HRIAs should consider not consider Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Niels ten Oever:HRIA should not consider particular Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Niels ten Oever:HRIAs should not consider particular Human Rights in isolation since they are universal, indivisible, interdependent, and interrelated.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):sounds good

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:time check - 5 minutes

  Tatiana Tropina:yes am very happy too. I can't believe my ears and eyes

  Tatiana Tropina:can't

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):agree with Niels

  Greg Shatan:+1

  Greg Shatan:There should be a comma before "which" in the last sentence.

  Greg Shatan:It says "all matters before the Board."

  Greg Shatan:The "Consideration" only mentions the GAC.

  Tatiana Tropina:thanks all - incredible after being stuck for such a long time

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):bye for now then, talk again soon...

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:bye

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks all and bye!

  Tatiana Tropina:bye all

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Thank you NIels et al Bye

  Greg Shatan:Always a pleasure.  Bye.

  Greg Shatan:Always a pleasure.  Bye.