Attendees:

Members: Alan Greenberg, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Jorge Villa, Julie Hammer, Kavouss Arasteh, Leon Sanchez, Mathieu Weill, Michael Abejuela, Niels ten Oever, Rafael Perez Galindo, Robin Gross, Rosalia Morales, Sebastien Bachollet, Steve DelBianco, Tatiana Tropina, Thomas Rickert, Tijani Ben Jamaa (18)

Participants: Avri Doria, Barrack Otieno, Chris Disspain, Chris Wilson, David McAuley, Greg Shatan, Herb Waye, Malcolm Hutty, Markus Kummer, Megan Richards, Michael Karanicolas, Olga Cavalli, Philip Corwin, Rafik Dammak, Ricardo Holmquist, Suen Ojedeji, Vidushi Marda, Wale Bakare (18)

Observers and Guests: Taylor RW Bentley

Staff: Anne Rachel-Inne, Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Elizabeth Andrews, Karen Mulberry, Nathalie Vergnolle, Yvette Guigneaux

Apologies: Jordan Carter, Jorge Cancio, Julf Helsingius

** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **

Transcript

Recording

Agenda

1 Introduction, update to SOIs, reminder on standards of behavior

2 Administration

- Timeline
- IRP-IOT Public Consultation
- ATRT3 Letter to SO/ACs
- Funding for ICANN 58

3 Legal Committee

- Review of Requests
- Process for requests from IRP-IOT

4 Updates/Presentation from sub-groups

- IGF (short update)
- Ombudsman (short update)
- SO/AC accountability (short update)
- Diversity (short update and questions)
- Jurisdiction (review of questions)
- Human rights (first reading)
- Transparency (first reading)

5 AOB

6 Adjournment

Notes (including relevant parts of chat):

1. Introduction, update to SOIs, reminder on standards of behavior

Thomas Rickert: Introduction, SOIs , audio only GS, MK, SO, BO.

Farzaneh Badii: Have changed affiliation given I have completed by PhD and I have joined the Internet Governance Project at Georgia Tech and will start in January.

2. Administration

• Timeline

avri doria: Staff Acct is not going to make that schedule (Track 2)

Chris Wilson: transparency might

• IRP-IOT Public Consultation

• ATRT3 Letter to SO/ACs

• Funding for ICANN 58

Bernard Turcotte: due to a miss-communication with ICANN Travel we are late in providing the names of our supported travellers to them. As such the co-chairs will evaluate and approve a first batch of applications as of Monday 19 December and confirm those to ICANN Travel by Wednesday 21 December. All other application will be reviewed as per the originally proposed dates.

3. Legal Committee

• Review of Requests

Leon Sanchez: There are no outstanding requests as we have reciev ed replies to the HR questions a few hours ago.

• Process for requests from IRP-IOT

Leon Sanchez: review of process for the IRP-IOT making requests of external legal counsel.

David McAuley: (Background on IRP-IOT asking for legal advice) Going forward the IRP IOT Rapporteur can access outside counsel directly, keeping ICANN Legal and the PCST informed of these requests.

Malcolm Hutty: want to ensure Holly and Rosemary will continue to advise the IRPIOT directly.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: Completely agree with Malcolm.

Leon Sachez: you will not lose this ability. The Chair concludes that moving forward the IRP IOT Rapporteur can access outside counsel directly, keeping ICANN Legal and the PCST informed of these requests.

4. Updates/Presentation from sub-groups

• IGF

Steve DelBianco: (no document) A number of sessions related to ICANN work and CCWG-Accountability. These were noted as a good example of multi-stakeholder model at work. Govts grateful and amazed that the IANA contract was allowed to lapse. Should generate more participation in the ICANN multistakeholder process.

Thomas Rickert: any other views? Also want to thank AD for her efforts at the IGF vs our work. No other comments.

• Ombudsman

Sebastien Bachollet: (2 slides) External Review process now underway. currently working out the schedule of the work. May not complete by July 2017.

• SO/AC accountability

Steve DelBianco: (dashboard slide) Have made significant progress - we have 3 tracks - 1 awaiting replies to questionnaire. Track 2 and 3 we have preliminary conclusions which we will be reviewing on our group call tomorrow.

Kavouss Arasteh: time to reply has passed. How many replies were received by deadline and how long this will be extended. Can we have an explanation of how replies will be analyzed.

Steve DelBianco: gNSO sub-groups will be providing individual replies given they have separate charters. Process for analysis will be discussed on our sub-group call tomorrow.

• Diversity

Rafik Dammak: continuing to develop our document and questionnaire so we can obtain plenary feedback on which areas of diversity they consider important. working on identifying sources of information on diversity.

• Jurisdiction (review of questions)

Greg Shatan: (display of preamble and questions document). Trying to get evidence of issues surrounding jurisdiction. We have added a fourth question which has been under discussion by the group. Reading of document so this could be a first reading.

Kavouss Arasteh: who will reply to this - if it does not properly represent the global multi-stakeholder community the results cannot be valid.

Mathieu Weill: Responses we receive need to be analyzed carefully and not claim representativeness if there is none - but this is the nature of this process and we have experience in this.

Seun Ojedeji: Is ICANN state of incorporation open for discussion or not?

Megan Richards: is it not our responsibility to do outreach to get widest possible response? then responses will of. course be assessed based on source

David McAuley (RySG): Agree that it will be quite hard to weigh replies in this unscientific survey, especially how to weigh opinions that might be posted.

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: It is, Megan I agree. No survey can be perfectly exhaustive

Greg Shatan: In response to Kavous a majority of Jurisdiction participants are non-US based. turning to questions.

Jeff Neuman: What is a "DNS-related service". Most DNS services have NOTHING to do with ICANN

Chris Disspain: Jeff + 1

Farzaneh Badii: well Jeff if their contract with ICANN affect their policies in providing service for the users then it has something to do with ICANN.

Greg Shatan:(reading of questions fom document).

Chris Disspain: who are we intending to ask these questions?

Greg Shatan: As large a group as possible. but not a public comment.

Chris Disspain: so how can we be sure that responders understand what ICANN's role is and are not answering the questions from a wrong basis?

Jeff Neuman: the only DNS providers that are under contract with ICANN are those that happen to also be registries or registrars....and even those do not have their managed DNS services regulated by ICANN

Farzaneh Badii: Jeff, some registries and registrars, sometimes presume that they have to apply OFAC even when not based in the US. registries and registrars should be briefed they don't have to apply OFAC regulations

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: Jeff, I noted your question as well

Farzaneh Badii: I am hoping that with this exercise we can clarify jurisdictional confusions. not to change ICANN's jurisdiction

Nathalie Vergnolle: On behalf of Jorge Cancio: "I apologize for not being able to attend today’s call due to other prior engagements. Let me add that I’m in support of sending out all 4 questions prepared in the Jurisdiction Group. I feel that at this point of our discussions, where we are trying to gather as many facts, experiences and reasoned opinions as possible which are relevant for the influence that ICANN’s jurisdiction has on its operations and accountability mechanisms, we should not rule out questions (as question nr. 4) that have been considered important by an important part of the Subgroup (in fact, by a slight majority of it).At later stages we may determine whether ingoing responses regarding that question are factual or are mere opinions without a well-founded basis. At this moment I think that excluding relevant questions could give rise to wrong perceptions and could potentially prevent us from knowing relevant experiences/assessments covered only by question nr.

Seun Ojedeji: Did not get answer to my question.

Greg Shatan: potentially yes. Group methodology is to identify issues and then look for remedies. If there is an issue that requires this remedy, then we would consider it.

Kavouss Arasteh: First question - should not mention business or privacy.

Farzaneh Badii: thank you Kavouss :) talking for non-commercial users

Jeff Neuman: Why do we say DNS-related services? Why not just domain names?

Farzaneh Badii: I agree with you Jeff

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: +1 Jeff

Farzaneh Badii: Domain name is a better term. DNS is too broad

Greg Shatan: these are OR based so essentially asking 3 questions. As to DNS - used in colloquial sense - not as managed DNS - but rather as the domain name system in general.

Kavouss Arasteh: We should remain general

Jeff Neuman: Most purchasers of DNS related services have no clue who ICANN is

Farzaneh Badii: but DNS could mean RIRs too ... but we are not talking about them

Wale Bakare: Domain names may be too complex but DNS is like targeting ICANN's customers directly. Domain names - end users generally, i think

David McAuley: I think this questionnaire is a mistaken effort. We should be focusing on contract disputes vs jurisdiction. WS2 is not the appropriate place to look into ICANN state of incorporation.

Kavouss Arasteh: David the entire 4 questions are package

avri doria: on the other hand a lot of others do think that WS2 is the only time to start dealing with these issues.

Farzaneh Badii: @David, where should we discuss these issues?

Kavouss Arasteh: All or none

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: that binary makes no sense

Steve DelBianco: +1 Robin

Kavouss Arasteh: Yes, it make sense

David McAuley (RySG): Farzi, not sure, but believe that WS2 is not the place. As a place to start the larger discussion, my concern is WS2 timeframe among others

Farzaneh Badii: yeah time frame is too short I agree. But I fear that if we don't discuss now we never discuss.

Mathieu Weill: We have gone as far as we can go today on this topic. We will come back to this at our next meeting.

Kavouss Arasteh: Mathieu , we need advice to the sub group that chair must maintain its neutrality and just conduct the meeting and therefore not to insist on his views and his colleagues views.

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: Kavouss - that is not right

Kavouss Arasteh: Yes Finn ,I am aware of your views on the entire process and you do not need to repeat it

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: Kavouss - sorry - I think that your views are also known :)

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: Kavouss, all : let's now focus on HR please.

Kavouss Arasteh: Then pls let us not say who is right and who is not right

Kavouss Arasteh: Finn , you may not be aware of problems of others regarding jurisdiction as Denmark has no problem with US jurisdiction unconditionally apply to every case

Kavouss Arasteh: Pls then, let us express our views and kindly no say whether we are right or wrong. We are what we are

Greg Shatan: I'll note to the chat that on the jurisdiction questions, these are being put forth for individual review, discussion and approval by the CCWG Plenary. There was no discussion in the subgroup of putting them forward as a package.

Kavouss Arasteh: We discuss every thing, nothing agreed until every thing is agreed

Greg Shatan: Kavouss, I agree that the plenary should have a free and open discussion, without preconditions.

Kavouss Arasteh: Mathieu, Thomas, Leon,

Kavouss Arasteh: If Greg insist to to accept the logic of the importance of Q4, we have serious difficulties at the next step

Kavouss Arasteh: to not accept

Greg Shatan: Kavouss, I have only reported the levels of support for each question. The conclusions about those levels, and the conclusions of the plenary, are not mine to make.

Kavouss Arasteh: But the concept of Q 4 is important and you implictly rejecting the q4

• Human rights (first reading)

Greg Shatan: reading of document.

Tatiana Tropina: continue reading document.

Leon Sanchez: Any comments?

David McAuley: re applicable law - should be clear as read.

Leon Sanchez: This concludes the first reading of this document with no major modifications.

Kavouss Arasteh: Can we do second reading now?

Leon Sanchez: Good suggestion but we have a process which we should respect.

Tatiana Tropina: would be good if anyone who has comments submits them via email list

avri doria: agree with respecting interval to discuss between readings.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): indeed +1

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: Kudos to the HR subgroup, Niels and the drafting team! Outstanding work

• Transparency (first reading)

Thomas Rickert:Let us move on to the this revised transparency document.

Michael Karanicholas: review of major changes - Whistleblower and interactions with govts are essentially the same. Format of document has been updated. Transparency vs Board deliberations - ability to exclude input as what is essentially a discretionary decision - new text here - DIDP a few additions. Included some language on open contracting - not retroactive. Narrowing scope of client-attorney privilege - in Hyderabad ICANN legal said they would be open to this. Let us remember that ICANN has the ability to release any information privileged information it wishes. Discussion of CW comments to the list - however cost of implementation is beyond our mandate.

Steve DelBianco: IRP is complex and expensive, and may not be the best tool to challenge the board for redacting a single portion of its meeting minutes.

Michael Karanicolas: Hi Steve - I think the concern is that there should be some accountability/oversight. Do you have an alternate suggestion?

Thomas Rickert: Great document.

Kavouss Arasteh: Question - Removing parts of Board minutes before or after Board approval of minutes?

Greg Shatan: very concerned regarding client-attorney privilege?

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: Good document - One point: It is proposed to “provide a clearer picture of how, when, and to what extent ICANN engages with governments”. I prefer to extend it to cover all parties that ICANN discusses policy matters with – that is, not only to governments.

Kavouss Arasteh: Aha, Someone from GAC opposing to governments '''

avri doria: transparency should be the default condition.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: I agree, Avri. The traditional roles don't work in this context

Thomas Rickert: We are collecting the comments and not trying to deal with them here.

David Mcauley: sub-group has not approved this for a first reading.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): agree David too soon for 1st read here

David McAuley (RySG): I think Michael's update was great but I think we have not addressed this at subteam level - Michael?

Chris Wilson: Expect further discussion on our call on Dec. 15.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: Best to follow proper process and go through sub team.

avri doria: I respect the work they are doing to try and meet the staff schedule for completing the work.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): and we have not had our so meeting yet

David McAuley (RySG): Timing is tight and again I think Michael's presentation today was a superb update

Chris Wilson:Not trying to short-circuit the sub-group.

Greg Shatan 2: Perhaps this should be considered a "discussion," rather than a "first reading."

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: Agree, Greg.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): yes a great update but not a 1st read

Thomas Rickert: Could we ask the sub-team to provide the plenary with a revised version for the next meeting of the plenary. Would also ask participants to provide any comments on this to the plenary list.

5. AOB

Kavouss Arasteh: HR congratulations should be made officially.

Mathieu Weill: this has been done earlier in the meetings and is in the notes.

6. Adjournment

Action Items

Documents

AC Chat

Yvette Guigneaux: (12/13/2016 12:25) Welcome all to the CCWG-Accountability Plenary Meeting #10 | Wednesday, 14 December @ 13:00 UTC!

Kavouss Arasteh: (12/14/2016 04:35) Dear Yevette,

Kavouss Arasteh: (04:35) Dear Brenda

Kavouss Arasteh: (04:35) Good time

Yvette Guigneaux: (04:39) Good day Kavouss

Tatiana Tropina: (04:56) Hello. I am sorry, what is the dial-in number for Germany?

Tatiana Tropina: (04:56) Can't find it in the invite, message clipped

Brenda Brewer: (04:57) one moment please, Tatiana

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (04:57) GERMANY 49-69-2222-20362 0800-664-4247

Tatiana Tropina: (04:57) Thanks a milion!

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (04:58) Hello everyone

Chris Disspain: (04:59) Greetings

Tatiana Tropina: (04:59) yes

Chris Disspain: (04:59) Can hear

Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (04:59) Hi all!

Herb Waye Ombuds: (04:59) Good morning everyone

David McAuley (RySG): (04:59) hello all

Leon Sanchez: (05:00) hello everyone

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:01) There are some people omni present at all meetings of all subgroups

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:01) Good morning from San Francisco!

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:01) However, they are coming from a very narrow branch of the global mulrtistakehoders

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:02) pls speak slowly

Farzaneh Badii: (05:03) I have an update on SOI

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:03) Pls may we ask our distinguished colleagues to speak slowly separating sylabus one from another

Brenda Brewer: (05:03) Barrack Otieno is on phone only

Brenda Brewer: (05:04) Suen Ojedeji, Markus Kummer on audi only

David McAuley (RySG): (05:04) congrats Farzi

Tatiana Tropina: (05:05) Congrats again Farzy :)

Wale Bakare: (05:05) Hi everyone

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:05) Congrats Farzi !

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:05) Congrats, Farzi!!

Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:05) Well done Farzi!!!!!!!!!

Vidushi Marda: (05:05) Congrats Farzi!

Leon Sanchez: (05:05) Indeed congrats Farzi!

Sebastien (ALAC): (05:05) Bravo Farei!!!!

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:05) congars doctor farzi

Farzaneh Badii: (05:05) Thank you everyone :)

avri doria: (05:07) Staff Acct is not going to make that schedue

Chris Wilson: (05:07) transparency might

avri doria: (05:12) but people still have time to figure what they need, if they can some at all.

avri doria: (05:13) but it is a FCFS typ of process? not an application window?

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:14) This is supposed to be the same travel support deal that was provided for Hyderabad, yes?

Michael Karanicolas: (05:14) Transparency should be able to make the track 2 schedule. Ultimately it depends on how much more feedback/changes we receive

Leon Sanchez: (05:14) That is correct Robin

Leon Sanchez: (05:14) Same rules

avri doria: (05:14) this is far more restruictive seeming and very tough application procedures. not quite the same. lots of tough rules.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:15) That is not the same deal as Hyderabad.

Michael Karanicolas: (05:15) But we have a completed draft, which is quite well developed as this point, and has received robust input on everything but the board deliberations rec's.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:15) So this is a significant reduction from the Hyderabad support.

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (05:16) Remember to apply for visa no later than 25 February

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:17) Are requests submitted via email? How does the online form get submitted? It looks like a posted .pdf.

avri doria: (05:18) ok, i think i understand now

Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:18) The pdf cannot be completed online

avri doria: (05:18) oh yes, i noticed that the pdf was not a form.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:18) So how to submit the form?

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:18) scanned form

avri doria: (05:19) i guess: print, fill in by pen, scan and send?

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:19) Clarification would be very helpful on how to submit the form.

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (05:20) will get a new form on the website

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (05:25) Completely agree with Malcolm.

Farzaneh Badii: (05:26) agree with Malcolm

Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:28) Agree with Steve about Guadalajara

Megan Richards: (05:28) right Steve. more meetings in Guadalajara ! :-)

Tatiana Tropina: (05:29) was an awesome meeting!

David McAuley (RySG): (05:29) 'endured' good verb Steve

Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:29) with Internet all the time :)

David McAuley (RySG): (05:29) for WS1, that is

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:30) It's good that we have WS2 to recover and enjoy... ;-)

David McAuley (RySG): (05:31) agree Mathieu

avri doria: (05:31) i explained the same, in different words, to many in civil society

avri doria: (05:32) i did not menion the fun.

Farzaneh Badii: (05:33) yes. I also mentioned the fun times

Megan Richards: (05:33) fun when it stops :-)

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:33) Staff Support, queue is not displayed

avri doria: (05:33) actually i did say it was fun.

Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:33) yes we have fun

avri doria: (05:33) for some definition of fun

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (05:33) time check - 90 minutes left in call

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:34) We do not need to admire ourselves as we should leave to other to admire us ,if we merit that admiration

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:35) Berni, queue is not displayed

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (05:36) KA ?

David McAuley (RySG): (05:36) I just checked and raised hand worked here, not sure what issue might be

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (05:36) @KA same here

Farzaneh Badii: (05:38) thanks to those sending in the responses.

Farzaneh Badii: (05:39) Thanks Steve

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (05:41) thanks Steve

avri doria: (05:46) i lost audio, is it just me?

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:46) audio fine for me Avri

Leon Sanchez: (05:46) audio fine for me too

Alan Greenberg: (05:51) difficult to hear Kavouss

Megan Richards: (05:52) is it not our responsibility to do outreach to get widest possible response ? then responses will of. course be assessed based on source

David McAuley (RySG): (05:53) Agree that it will be quite hard to weigh replies in this unscientific survey, especially how to weigh opinions that might be posted.

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:53) It is, Megan I agree. No survey can be perfectly exhaustive

Vidushi Marda: (05:55) Centre for Internet and Society.

Megan Richards: (05:56) apologies but moving to CCT meeting

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:56) You have scroll control over the doc

Leon Sanchez: (05:56) thanks Megan

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (05:56) @Greg hand up

Jeff Neuman: (05:57) What is a "DNS-related service". Most DNS services have NOTHING to do with ICANN

Chris Disspain: (05:58) Jeff + 1

Farzaneh Badii: (05:58) well Jeff if their contract with ICANN affect their policies in providing service for the users then it has something to do with ICANN

Jeff Neuman: (05:58) Most DNS service providers have No contracts with ICANN

Kavouss Arasteh: (05:58) Mathieu, I have comments on Q 1

Farzaneh Badii: (05:58) I am talking about those that have a contract

Farzaneh Badii: (05:59) I agree wtih you on the ones that don't

Chris Disspain: (05:59) who are we intending to ask these questins??

Nathalie Vergnolle: (05:59) On behalf of Jorge Cancio: "I apologize for not being able to attend today’s call due to other prior engagements.Let me add that I’m in support of sending out all 4 questions prepared in the Jurisdiction Group. I feel that at this point of our discussions, where we are trying to gather as many facts, experiences and reasoned opinions as possible which are relevant for the influence that ICANN’s jurisdiction has on its operations and accountability mechanisms, we should not rule out questions (as question nr. 4) that have been considered important by an important part of the Subgroup (in fact, by a slight majority of it).At later stages we may determine whether ingoing responses regarding that question are factual or are mere opinions without a well-founded basis.At this moment I think that excluding relevant questions could give rise to wrong perceptions and could potentially prevent us from knowing relevant experiences/assessments covered only by question nr. 4.@staff: please note these comments in the

Nathalie Vergnolle: (06:00) relevant part of the call."

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:00) Mathieu,

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:01) i have a comment on q1

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:01) Noted Kavouss, you are in the line after Seun

Chris Disspain: (06:01) so how can we be sure that responders understand what ICANN's role is and are not answering the questions from a wrong basis?

Jeff Neuman: (06:01) the only DNS providers that are under contract with ICANN are those that happen to also be registries or registrars....and even those do not have their managed DNS services regulated by ICANN

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (06:02) time check - 60 minutes left in call

Niels ten Oever: (06:02) hi all, am only in the chat, but am also in another meeting, trying to follow :)

Niels ten Oever: (06:02) FYI

Farzaneh Badii: (06:03) Jeff, some registeries and registrars, sometimes presume that they have to apply OFAC even when not based in the US. registeries and registrars should be briefed they don't have to apply OFAC regulations

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:03) Jeff, I noted your question as well

Farzaneh Badii: (06:04) I am hoping that with this exercise we can clarify jurisdictional confusions. not to change ICANN's jurisdiction

avri doria: (06:04) had t o dial in, lost sound completely and missed most of this section.

David McAuley (RySG): (06:04) Avri, Greg just read out the questions and we are moving to queue shortly ago

Farzaneh Badii: (06:05) thank you Kavouss :) talking for noncommercial users

Jeff Neuman: (06:05) Why do we say DNS-related services? Why not just domain names?

Farzaneh Badii: (06:06) I agree with you Jeff

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:06) +1 Jeff

Farzaneh Badii: (06:07) Domain name is a better term. DNS is too broad

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:07) We should remain general

Jeff Neuman: (06:08) Most purchasers of DNS related services have no clue who ICANN is

Farzaneh Badii: (06:08) but DNS could mean RIRs too ... but we are not talking about them

Wale Bakare: (06:09) Domain names may be too complex but DNS is like targeting ICANN's customers directly. Domain names - end users generally, i think

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:09) Once gain, we should not refer to pbusiness nor privacy

Jeff Neuman: (06:09) DNS is not targeting ICANN's customers

Jeff Neuman: (06:09) 90% of DNS providers have NOTHING to do with ICANN

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:09) Once again ,pls raise general questions

Farzaneh Badii: (06:09) I agree with Jeff here.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:10) We need to be specific about what we are referring to, otherwise we risk mission creep.

Farzaneh Badii: (06:10) Yes we need to be specific

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:10) David the entire 4 questions are package

avri doria: (06:10) on the other hand a lot of others do think that WS is the only time to start dealing with these issues.

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:11) All or noner

Farzaneh Badii: (06:11) @David, where should we discuss these issues?

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:11) all or none

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:11) that binary makes no sense

Steve DelBianco: (06:11) +1 Robin

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:12) Yes ,it make sense

David McAuley (RySG): (06:13) Farzi, not sure, but believe that WS2 is not the place. As a place to start the larger discussion, my concern is WS2 timeframe among others

Farzaneh Badii: (06:14) yeah time frame is too short I agree. But I fear that if we don't discuss now we never discuss.

avri doria: (06:15) Which i read as there not being consensus for sending out the questionnaire without q4.

David McAuley (RySG): (06:16) sounds fair Mathieu

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:16) My apologies Kavouss

Farzaneh Badii: (06:17) I need to leave now. sorry. bye

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:17) If Grec ,as leader of the group, continue to insist on his views ,we have serious problem

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (06:17) bye

Tatiana Tropina: (06:17) can we have a doc? :-)

David McAuley (RySG): (06:18) Good bye Farzi, congrats again, sounds great

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:19) Mathieu , we need advioce to the suib group that .chair must maintain its neutrality and just conduct the meeting and therefore not to insist on his views and his us colleagues's views

David McAuley (RySG): (06:19) why not so transparency first

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (06:19) Kavouss - that is not right

Tatiana Tropina: (06:19) I am sending it to you, Greg

Tatiana Tropina: (06:19) check your email

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:19) I appologize for cap

Leon Sanchez: (06:20) Tatiana could you please forward to staff for display?

Tatiana Tropina: (06:20) shall I send it to the staff to put it up

Tatiana Tropina: (06:20) yes, whom?

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:20) Yes Finn ,I am aware of your views on the entire process and you do not need to repaet it

Leon Sanchez: (06:20) to Bernie and Brenda please

Brenda Brewer: (06:21) acct-staff@icann.org

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:22) Staff .pls when reproducing the note kindly convert the CAP to lower case .that was my mistake

Tatiana Tropina: (06:22) sent

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (06:22) @KA - will do

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (06:22) Kavouss - sorry - I think that your views are also known :)

Tatiana Tropina: (06:22) thanks!

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:22) Kavouss, all : let's now focus on HR please.

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:23) Then pls let us not say who is right and who is not right

Tatiana Tropina: (06:23) I hope it's easier to switch the focus now as we have HR doc on the screen

David McAuley (RySG): (06:24) The HR subgroup drafting team were Greg, Tatiana, Matthew Shears and Jorge Cancio - they worked hard and well on this FoI

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:25) Finn , you may niot be aware of problems of others regarding jurisdiction as Denmark has no problem with US jurisdiction unconditionally apply to every case

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:26) Pls then, let us express our views and kindly no say whether we are right or wrong,. We are what we are

Greg Shatan: (06:26) I'll note to the chat that on the jurisdiction questions, these are being put forth for individual review, discussion and approval by the CCWG Plenary. There was no discussion in the subgroup of putting them forward as a package.

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:27) No Dear Chair,

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:27) We discuss every thing, nothing agreed untill every thing is agreed

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:28) Dear Steve,

Steve DelBianco: (06:28) can staff determine whose line is allowing all that background noise?

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:29) You have already imposed your ST 18 to us, pls kindly allow us to express our views

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (06:29) time check - 30 minutes left in call

Greg Shatan: (06:30) Kavouss, I agree that the plenary should have a free and open discussion, without preconditions.

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:30) Mathieu, Thomas, Leon,

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:31) If Grec insist to to accept the logic of the importance of Q4, we have serious difficulties at the next step

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:32) to not accept

David McAuley (RySG): (06:32) I don't think Greg would know and I may be wrong but just to be sure

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:33) The written document, not the reading, is the reference of course

Tatiana Tropina: (06:33) Yes, reading feels a bit like elocution class :-)

Tatiana Tropina: (06:34) would be good if anyone who has comments submits them via email list

avri doria: (06:34) agree with repsecting interval for disucss between readings.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (06:35) indeed +1

Greg Shatan: (06:35) Kavouss, I have only reported the levels of support for each question. The conclusions about those levels, and the conclusions of the plenary, are not mine to make.

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:35) Grec,

Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:35) Kudos to the HR subgroup, Niels and the drafting team ! Outstanding work

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:35) But the concept of Q 4 is important and you implictly rejecting the q4

Tatiana Tropina: (06:35) Thanks Mathieu!

Niels ten Oever: (06:36) Thanks - with I could have heard the discussion! But will listen back later.

Leon Sanchez: (06:36) Excellent work by the HR subgroup. Congrats!

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:37) Congradulations to Niels who is now alone .He did a fantastic job

Tatiana Tropina: (06:37) Niels, there was no discussion. Seems all the wars were in our subgroup!

Niels ten Oever: (06:37) Lots of professionalism in the group as well as the drafting team, working on this is a pleasure!

Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (06:39) Niels, while I congratulate the whole group, we owe you a lot of thanks for managing the group and the drafting process.

Steve DelBianco: (06:40) IRP is complex and expensive, and may nto be the best tool to challenge the board for redacting a single portion of its meeting minutes.

Tatiana Tropina: (06:41) Niels pushed and turtured the drafting team, without him we wouldn;'t have been able to finally mobilise and reach compromise - so we do owe him a lot

Tatiana Tropina: (06:41) *tortured

Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (06:41) torture in a HR group? Interesting

Tatiana Tropina: (06:42) Thomas, yes - the chair is above the applicable law and bylaw is dormant anyway :D

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:42) The term "Tortue" seems not correct

Greg Shatan 2: (06:48) "Torture" in the positive sense of the word.

David McAuley (RySG): (06:49) I have a process question

Wale Bakare: (06:49) @Niels, well done for putting such an arduous effort

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:50) Thanks, Michael, for this new draft.

Michael Karanicolas: (06:50) Hi Steve - I think the concern is that there should be some accountability/oversight. Do you have an alternate suggestion?

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (06:51) Good document - One point: It is proposed to “provide a clearer picture of how, when, and to what extent ICANN engages with governments”. I prefer to extend it to cover all parties that ICANN discusses policy matters with – that is, not only to governments.

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:52) Aha, Someone from GAC opposing to governments '''

avri doria: (06:52) transparency shuld be the defalt condition.

Chris Wilson: (06:52) Thanks, Finn. The specificity with respective to governments is what the community agreed to during WS 1. Expanding beyond that would go beyond what was agreed to then.

avri doria: (06:52) exceptions should be case by case.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:52) I agree, Avri. The traditional roles don't work in this contet.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:53) context

avri doria: (06:53) seesm a reconsideration would have to come before IRP on a edaction issue

Greg Shatan 2: (06:53) Hmmm. are we putting the plenary cart before the subgroup horse?

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (06:54) agree David too soon for 1st read here

Chris Wilson: (06:54) It has been circulated to the subgroup - done on Friday last week.

David McAuley (RySG): (06:54) I think Michale's update was great but I think we have not addressed this at subteam level - Michael?

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:54) Thomas, I raised a q??

Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (06:54) Thx Chris - I will look into WS1 - but this limit only to interaction with goverment

Chris Wilson: (06:55) Expect further discussion on our call on Dec. 15.

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:55) Best to follow proper process and go through subteeam

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:55) Thomas, could I get an answer to my question pls?

Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (06:55) Kavouss, I will give Michael the opportunity to respond to your and the other points in a moment.

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (06:56) time check - 5 minutes left

avri doria: (06:57) i repsect the work they are doing to try and meet the staff schedule for completing the work.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (06:57) and we have not had our so meeting yet

David McAuley (RySG): (06:57) Timing is tight and again I think Michael's presentation today was a superb update

Greg Shatan 2: (06:57) Perhaps this should be considered a "discussion," rather than a "first reading."

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (06:58) Agree, Greg.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (06:58) yes a great update but not a 1st read

David McAuley (RySG): (06:58) actually the subteam call is tomorrow

Michael Karanicolas: (06:59) We have a call for the subgroup scheduled for tomorrow to discuss this

Kavouss Arasteh: (06:59) Pls kindly reply to my question

avri doria: (06:59) sort of a fist reading but not yet a complete first reading. perhaps help shorten the completion of the first after the subgroup has discussed further.

Michael Karanicolas: (06:59) CAn you clarify the Q Kavous, vua email?

Michael Karanicolas: (06:59) I had difficulty understanding

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (07:01) it has

Herb Waye Ombuds: (07:01) Wishing everyone Happy Holidays

David McAuley (RySG): (07:01) I have to leave for another call - good bye all

Wale Bakare: (07:01) Thanks, and bye all

Tatiana Tropina: (07:01) by all!

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (07:01) bye all

Vidushi Marda: (07:01) Bye all!

Markus Kummer: (07:01) bye all - good progress! happy holidays.

avri doria: (07:01) bye

Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (07:02) Bye - thanks!

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:02) thx everyone... Seasons Greetings... bye for now

Enhancing ICANN Accountability - Work Stream 2

CCWG ACCT WS2 Meeting #10 (14 December @ 13:00 UTC)