Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Regardless of where we are (inaudible), let's get started. Firstly, any of the follow-up action items from November 24 and a follow-on to the 2nd of December. The first one goes to you, Carlton.
Carlton Samules: Yes.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And that's through At-Large you've seen the public consultation on the ELI and UTLD?
Carlton Samules: There is a UTLD public consultation that closes on the 12th, which is, what, Sunday? We have-- The most immediate one is the public consultation for the new gTLD, and that closes on the 12th. As I recall, we have already outlined an ALAC response. Am I correct?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Not to my knowledge. We've got the call coming up.
Carlton Samules: I thought we drafted a response. I'm sure I've seen it. Let me look. I have it stored here somewhere.
Alan Greenberg: Which consultation are we talking about? I don't see anything closing on the 12th.
Carlton Samules: The detail date. Yes, 12/12/2009.Version 3 new gTLD application guidebook. (Inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (Inaudible)?
Carlton Samules: (Inaudible) schedule page.
Alan Greenberg: According to this, it's closed and awaiting summary. It closed on the 22nd, according to the ICANN home page.
Carlton Samules: Well, I'm looking at the policy development schedule At-Large. Policy advice schedule-- at the public consultation closing date. It is on the 12th of this month.
Alan Greenberg: Maybe somebody could explain how it got there.
Matthias Langenegger: Hi. This is Matthias. I changed the date after the ExCom conference in Seoul because the date that we would have had if the translations of the original announcement had been sent out-- So we just added the period that was missing for the public consultation process for those languages and added it at the end.
Alan Greenberg: Does anyone else know we get that?
Matthias Langenegger: Yeah. We've formed-- Cheryl, who's responsible for the public consultation about it.
Alan Greenberg: So they are awaiting our comments before summarizing?
Carlton Samules: That's what the comments says. Okay, so they extend it until the 13th of December because of the translation issue.
Alan Greenberg: They didn't formally extend it. I'm happy if they will accept our comments at that point. But, according to the ICANN website, it wasn't extended.
Matthias Langenegger: That's true. But they should know about it.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: The main thing is we've got the community call listed. What I'm unsure about is what's happening with any draft statement. And we've got the sub-committee, the new names task force and STI (inaudible). But we can't hold up the schedule of the STI.
Alan Greenberg: No. But the STI is in parallel with that. It can't wait on the STI. I haven't seen any traffic on the name issues task force about this. I'm not sure if that group is working on it or something else.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: If it's not that group, I'm baffled which or who is (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: I've lost track if we have a gTLD task force in addition to the name issues one. I thought the name issues was primarily just the IRT things morphed into whatever it is today.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes. I think it is primarily focused on a part of it, but a lot those who are on the name issue are also part of the gTLD--
Alan Greenberg: No. I agree. I'm just saying it may be on a different list that I haven't been focusing on.
Carlton Samules: What I have here is that, at Seoul, we made some comments on the guidebook, specifically as it relates to the time that they were asking for development of the-- I'm trying to read my writing here. I scribbled a few-- a few notes.
People: (Inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Evan had, certainly, a number of particular points he raised. What I'm unsure about, Carlton, is-- Is he still holding the pin on this? More importantly, if he is, does he know he is?
Carlton Samules: Well, I'm not sure about that. But I know there were several points raised, but they were all around the issue of the timing and the cost for applications-- whether or not there was going to be a variation on the cost for (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: There is a meeting scheduled, apparently, for the 10th, which is tomorrow or something. I'll have to see (inaudible).
Heidi Ullrich: Thursday. It's Thursday.
Carlton Samules: Yes. It's December 10th or 11th, the comments says. But I don't know anything more than that.
Alan Greenberg: And Evan is listed as presenting at it.
Heidi Ullrich: Actually, Matthias and I wanted to ask you who was going to moderate that session, because there are several officers at the new gTLD working group, and we wanted to ask who we should approach to be moderator-- or Alan.
Alan Greenberg: Not me.
Heidi Ullrich: Okay. Excellent.
Alan Greenberg: I thought Evan was leading that, but maybe-- Evan or Patrick or somebody. I don't remember.
Matthias Langenegger: I talked to Evan a couple of days ago, and he said he was willing to do the introduction to (inaudible) part of the teleconference.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: So, it sounds like he's still happy to hold the pin on a lot of this. It still brings us to Heidi's question as to who's going to moderate the conference call? Alan, are you in a position to do that?
Alan Greenberg: Was that Alan?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yep.
Carlton Samules: My notes says Alan raised issues about the fees. He raised an issue about the timing. That's what my note says. It doesn't say anything else about who was writing it.
Alan Greenberg: I'm not even listed as being on that group, according to the wiki.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I wouldn't lose any sleep over what the wiki says (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Well, I understand. I certainly-- I don't really want to take on anything else right now. I am absolutely snowed under and way backlogged on other work, including ExCom work. So taking on yet another task for a working group when I'm screwing up with the ones I'm working on right now is not really my idea of fun.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Understood.
Alan Greenberg: Pedner's going to die. Pedner's going to die unless we both get more-- other people involved, and I do some more work on it.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Carlton?
Sebastien Bachollet: I can do the-- If you want me to chair the meeting, I can do that tomorrow.
Carlton Samules: No. The meeting-- the chair-- I can't do that, Cheryl. Tomorrow and for the 10th, I am out all day.
Alan Greenberg: Sebastien was volunteering.
Carlton Samules: I'm sorry?
Alan Greenberg: Sebastien was volunteering.
Carlton Samules: Okay.
Sebastien Bachollet: It's up to you. I can do that if you wish. (Inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: We do have a chair of the group. I don't know if he's participating or not.
Heidi Ullrich: Yeah. That was Khaled, and I don't believe-- I don't know whether he's been participating. I can ask him, or we can have Sebastien be the moderator.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Who's listed as--?
Heidi Ullrich: Khaled Kuba.
Sebastien Bachollet: No. We changed that (inaudible). He was the chair of the working group during the Mexico summit but not since. And he's not participating, really, in this discussion anymore. It was a discussion to know if it's somebody like Patrick. Wait a second.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. Well, Sebastien, if you can take on the moderation role, we certainly have notes and contributions that have been collected. Carlton, is it possible for you to pass any notes you have through to the wiki? And then we just need to make sure that, if Evan is willing to do something on the introduction, we might be able to encourage him and a few others on the call to collaborate on the document itself.
The document needs to be put together in fairly short form. I think Evan's preparation for it through Seoul was fairly extensive. By using his lead, your moderation, and a little bit of collaboration with notes taken and records taken from our conversations at the Seoul meeting, the addition of whatever happens at the teleconference should mean we'd be able to pull a document together fairly quickly.
Heidi, it's a very good example, I think, where-- that looking at the wiki (inaudible) on some of those work groups shows how incredibly out of date it is. We've focused on, I think, modifying the PAD a little bit more effectively. But the wiki (inaudible) left over from the random or other allocations that were done for the summit and actually have little or no relevance to ongoing work.
Heidi Ullrich: Yeah. I'm realizing that. So, can we make that an action item to update them?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I think we need to. Yeah.
Carlton Samules: Who are the content--? Who are the content updaters?
Alan Greenberg: I think the real issue-- I hate to tell you, Carlton, but, by taking on responsibility for overseeing the policy development, I think somebody has to be looking at each of these items that are there early on, way before the due dates. And it should become obvious if the information is out of date. And then we can try to get it updated. I don't think we even have to go through it explicitly because it should happen as a matter of course as we're starting to look at things and make sure that we're not taken by surprise that we need a statement four days from now.
Sebastien Bachollet: Except that we made some changes in the working group, and it's still to be happen in the mailing list; for example, the transparency and accountability-- it's not anymore an existing working group because it's merged with the future structure and governance of ICANN. And it's why you see us chair, both Adam and myself, because Adam used to be one of the two transparency and accountability chair. We already do some work during the Seoul meeting. Maybe we need to clean up all the information to allow Carlton to do easier work because--
Alan Greenberg: Sebastien, I agree with you 100%. I think one of the issues is is, when we make changes, it's not sufficient to simply write them in the minutes of the meeting. If membership in a group changes, the mailing list has to be updated along with that. The wiki needs to be changed. When we make changes, we can't just record them in one place and hope that somehow it drifts out to the other pages and other mailing lists magically.
Carlton Samules: Okay. Yes. Well, that is taken.
Alan Greenberg: That wasn't a statement for you. That was, in general, whether it's staff or--
Carlton Samules: I understand. I'm just saying that it makes sense to me. That does make sense, so we have to do it that way.
Alan Greenberg: In some cases, it's staff, and in some cases, it's other people. But these things have to start being coordinated and synchronized with each other.
Carlton Samules: Yeah. It really requires a little bit of synchronicity here. This one, for example, if you go to the working group wiki, there are things that I know, because I have notes, that have happened that are not reflected here. So, probably, we just need to make sure that whoever has stuff to put on there-- I have notes from Seoul that I don't see on the working group, the wiki.
Alan Greenberg: I think that's true for pretty much every project we're working on.
Carlton Samules: Yeah.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And it's getting the leads in each of the workgroups involved as well, which I think-- Matthias, is that going to be more something you'll be focusing on as you work in the region as well?
Matthias Langenegger: We haven't really discussed that in detail at the moment. But I think, from what I understand, the working group wikis have been maintained by the chairs at the working groups until now.
Alan Greenberg: That's fine if the chairs are kept up to date. But, when we have a working group like the gTLD one, which is certainly a current subject, where I'm told the chair listed is the person who has done-- who did it in Mexico City, which we're approaching a year ago on, we have a problem.
Heidi Ullrich: This is Heidi. And, actually, I will be-- I would like to be the focus person of this At-Large working with the ExCom, working with the working group chairs. And this will be a high priority as soon as we can and, particularly, when we get another consultant in place, which I'm hoping is going to be very soon. My aim-- And, again, of course, I take direction from you. But it's to do similar work as we've done with the regions-- it's to get them working, get them up to effective functioning, et cetera.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yep.
Alan Greenberg: You got my vote.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yep. All right. Well, it sounds like this is more of a carryover action item than anything else.
Heidi Ullrich: It's actually one of my key goals this trimester.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay.
Alan Greenberg: I'm preaching to the choir, but, until we get the people at least knowing what they're responsible for, the actual work is never going to get done.
Heidi Ullrich: Absolutely. I agree.
Alan Greenberg: There's no guarantee it does after that. But, without it, it's not going to get done.
Carlton Samules: The item here that I see is that we have to have some coordination to make sure that the contents on all of these various information pages are updated and we capture what it is that we need to capture on it. That is going to require some kind of coordination. I will probably be the one to do that-- kind of just push and ask staff to kind of help in getting everybody organized here around that. That's something that I can do.
Alan Greenberg: Carlton, when you have some time when we can schedule an hour or two to talk, we can-- You and I, if you wish, can spend some time and try to figure out just how we approach this. I think what you're describing is correct. But it's not-- That alone will not be sufficient.
Carlton Samules: All right, Alan. I appreciate that. I'll get back to you.
Alan Greenberg: At your convenience. Yeah.
Carlton Samules: I'll get back to you on that.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Carlton Samules: Go ahead. Sorry, Cheryl.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: No. I'm just saying that's very good. We still will struggle with a few things that are, quite literally, on our plate right now. But it sounds like we're heading in (inaudible)--
Carlton Samules: Well, the first one is that we will have to collect-- I know that there were comments that were issued on the new gTLD. I see in my notes there were a couple of things that Evan raised. There are one or two things that I have. But I didn't have detailed notes. All I said was these were the issues.
Alan Greenberg: I think Evan and, probably, Patrick have been the ones who have spoken most about this, in my recollection, because Patrick's been involved in that statement of interest group. And a lot of the new gTLD issues focus around things that they're looking at-- which have alluded to, rather, including - Should there be different categories of gTLDs (inaudible).
Carlton Samules: gTLD names and categories of people to apply (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: I think one of those either-- One of those should either be the person or should know who it is.
Carlton Samules: Well, I have notes that says Evan raised these issues. So I'm going to have to get in touch with Evan. Probably we could use that as a basis of a response that we could put together. I probably would volunteer to put the response together sometime later today or early tomorrow. And then I'll send it around, because my recollection is that a majority of the statements came out of Evan. And I'm sure that we could probably craft a fairly decent response in short order.
Alan Greenberg: Or, you can get him to do it, whichever.
Carlton Samules: Yeah. Well, I'm going to get to Evan right away.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Fantastic. There's also been input that has been put into the new names domain passport in terms of issues raised (inaudible)-- excuse me-- points from possible consensus with the existing comments put in by the business constituency in the GNSO. And so I think Olivier certainly raised some of those. So some of those, hopefully-- Sebastien, if you can ensure they get pinned down on the call because it's clear conflict of interest with, particularly, those we have in our group (inaudible), which means, I think, we need to handle input very carefully and very fairly.
Carlton Samules: Well-- The names issues task force-- I mean that one-- We've been throwing that around a lot. I've made some comments on that. There is a document that-- Well, there's a straw man document, and then there is the document that says - Here are the things that we have consensus on. There are only about two outstanding matters, as I recall. I think--
Alan Greenberg: If we're talking about-- Are we talking about the names issues task force in general or the GNSO STI initiative?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I think we're talking in general. Yeah, name issues in general.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. The only traffic I've seen recently is related to the STI work. And that was what Carlton was just referring to in terms of the straw man and stuff. I can give you an update on that process. But there's no deliverable directly to us from the names issues task force on that one.
Carlton Samules: No, there isn't. What I was saying, Adam-- I'm sorry, Alan-- is that there were some peripheral issues. There were some issues raised on that (inaudible) peripheral to the version 3 gTLD book.
Alan Greenberg: They're peripheral-- They're not peripheral to it. They are included in it. You can include them in it. But they are being handled separately. So there's no need for us to replicate that.
Carlton Samules: Oh. I see what you're saying. All right.
Alan Greenberg: We have enough work to do without trying to do things in two places at once.
Carlton Samules: I agree. We will get to that, then.
Alan Greenberg: I'm going to be suggesting in the next day or so that At-Large do have a minority statement that we append to that document. And the names issues group will be the focal point of saying, yes or no, pass these on to At-Large. But that has a timeline of its own, a very short timeline.
Carlton Samules: It's not very long either. I mean, that's not something that--
Alan Greenberg: No. I should have the draft report out by the end of the day. And there will probably be a meeting tomorrow morning, which will finalize it.
Carlton Samules: Okay. The other-- We have a way forward on this issue. I'm going to get with Evan to grasp whatever he has. And then I'll look back on the comments that are raised and see if we can craft a statement that we will circulate by middle day tomorrow. Yeah?
Alan Greenberg: I think there should be something out by the middle day tomorrow. We can't wait much longer. That's the deadline for going to the GSO. So exactly how we get that out is not clear. There's ongoing discussion right now.
Carlton Samules: Right.
Alan Greenberg: If there isn't a meeting scheduled, then I will send out what I have today, late today. If there is, I may defer for a few hours.
Carlton Samules: You mean the meeting that Sebastien heads up?
Alan Greenberg: No. This is a GNSO STI meeting.
Carlton Samules: Okay. All right.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Whatever document is produced as a draft is going to be a discussion point for the new gTLD call that Sebastien is going to be moderating.
Alan Greenberg: That may well be where it gets discussed. Yes.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes. I think that's right.
Alan Greenberg: Fortuitously timed.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Vanda, go ahead.
Vanda Scartezini: Just to make sure that everybody knows that the (inaudible) group is-- has finished its proposition and sent to the GNSO for approval. And we have some kind of debate about issues related to civility and the ombudsman, participation, and so on. So let's see what the GNSO will come out with this paper that, I believe, is very important for all the relationships we have with the GNSO, especially (inaudible). So it's a final paper. Probably it will-- It's sent to the GNSO. But Chuck is also circulating a little bit among the group to finalize some letters or something like that. But it's done. Also, is some instruction how to behave and so on. It's a good thing that we're going to see open up in the near future in the board and the other issue. Well, let's go to the next one.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thanks for that, Vanda.
Sebastien Bachollet: It's Sebastien. We have three position paper under vote, and we set it up to allow Vanda, our liaison to the board, to be able to use them during the next board meeting. And I see that there is already something like 11 voters and 11 yes for the three documents, I guess. And it's a document on introduction of internationalized ccTLD, the board review, and the NomComm review.
Carlton Samules: Yes. Those (inaudible) close on the 12th, I think. But I think the majority of the votes have already been cast.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: It means that at the board meeting Vanda can say that the votes are already (inaudible) affirmative.
Carlton Samules: That's what I said. Yes.
Vanda Scartezini: Most of the people are voting in favor.
Sebastien Bachollet: It's 11 yes, and it's closed at 23:59 UTC. Then it's tomorrow evening of course.
Vanda Scartezini: I was trying to vote. But then I was alerted that I'm not a voting member.
Carlton Samules: No. You are not anymore.
Vanda Scartezini: As I said, just the organization; no rights.
Alan Greenberg: Au contraire! You do have a few rights we don't have.
Vanda Scartezini: Which are read double of e-mails with no sense.
Alan Greenberg: If it's only double, you're doing well.
Vanda Scartezini: It's amazing. It's amazing the amount of e-mail that comes up, even if we have a very interesting (inaudible) that the board advances-- that they have everything closed. It's very interesting (inaudible) that people don't use. That's the main issue. It's all posted there. But just (inaudible) they still continue to circulate a lot of e-mail. Anyway. Sometime (inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I'm not aware of anything in our action item listing for the 24th of November that hasn't been dealt with either in this call or in our planning. Is that the case as far as you're concerned, Heidi?
Heidi Ullrich: Yes. I am looking at these, and it looks that you are correct, Cheryl.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. So it's really now anything that came out of part one of the ExCom meeting that was held on the 2nd. If we can quickly look at those-- Many of these, by definition, will be ongoing because there hasn't been time to deal with them. And the issue on travel with Kevin, with Alan holding the pin, is an example of that.
Alan Greenberg: That statement hasn't gone out, but it will go out today-- hopefully, not too late.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Because I'm not looking at-- other than my G-mail at the moment while I'm away, I gather, though, that we have had the travel information go out to all our listed travelers. Is that the case - for Nairobi?
Heidi Ullrich: This is Heidi. It was transmitted yesterday. And I believe that the invitations will be going out today. And I will check on that. They have been given the preliminary list, so they are aware. But the formal list was sent yesterday - the official one.
Alan Greenberg: It was sent from who to who?
Heidi Ullrich: From myself to constituency travel, and I included a note, which I will follow up with today, noting the ExCom request that that travel database be sent to the ExCom. So I will follow up on that today.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. So you've sent them, essentially, the dates that people are expected to be working? Is that correct?
Heidi Ullrich: The arrival and departure dates. Yes.
Alan Greenberg: Did you send them arrival and departure dates, or did you send them the days where they have meetings?
Heidi Ullrich: I sent them the arrival and departure dates because-- The meetings-- I'm not quite sure. I'm not following you, Alan.
Alan Greenberg: Well, if people have meetings at 8:00 in the morning or 9:00 in the morning, saying they have to arrive the previous day and their flight only gets in at 11:00 p.m. is not satisfactory. That's why I'm trying to differentiate. That's why I'm trying to find out exactly what you have sent them.
Heidi Ullrich: Okay. I can inform them of that. But what we normally do is send the dates.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. Well, you're going to see the note I'm sending out, which really focuses around knowing when the meetings are that people have to attend. The travel people can make intelligent decisions without having to escalate them to Kevin or Steve. And that's the substance of what I'm saying. And it really focuses around their knowing when the meetings are, not being given a day they have to arrive because that's moderately meaningless, especially for people to have to have traveled for 36 hours.
I'm going to have my thing out, hopefully, by noon, if this meeting doesn't go on 'til then-- my noon. It's now 10:00 a.m. So you'll see that. And you may want to modify what you're doing or tell them I'm full of crap and to ignore me.
Heidi Ullrich: You're sending it to Kevin Wilson and Steve Antonoff (ph) by today?
Alan Greenberg: Yes. I'm copying this group, of course.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: So you'll get copied at the same time, Heidi.
Alan Greenberg: All I'm saying is - try to be humane and make reasonable decisions based on the fact that we actually want people to work when they get there.
Heidi Ullrich: Yes. In fact, I did note that in my message to them. But, again, as soon as I go into the office, I will discuss that with the powers that are.
Alan Greenberg: I would like to hope that they use the same rules for staff travel, at least, and don't ask staff to do more than what volunteers are doing and vice versa. You want people to be productive. You don't want them to be zombies.
Heidi Ullrich: Exactly. No. I made that point. Yes-- for At-Large travel participants.
Alan Greenberg: Yep.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And, unfortunately, we are still going to have some challenges because of the way (inaudible) has done this in the past. And this may be changing this time around for Nairobi. For example, I already wrote with specific choices (inaudible) from Australia to Nairobi for me in advance of all of this and with the princely amount of $30 difference but nine hours in total transit time sitting in airports. And, in the case of me, that makes a huge difference to how capable I am when I get to the other end. (Inaudible) holding the cheaper fare because that has me going through four airline changes instead of two.
Alan Greenberg: Cheryl, they've never argued with me over $30. Are they really arguing with you over it? If so, we need to wake people up.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I won't say arguing. I gave them a choice of some five different flights. And I said in my letter clearly, for the amount of $30 but less than-- you know, the difference between 30-plus hours and minus 30 hours travel time and two airlines and three stopovers versus two airlines and four stopovers, I would prefer not the cheapest but the second-cheapest. And guess what (inaudible) they have got on hold for me - the cheapest.
Now, these are frustrations we need to avoid, and this is why, Alan, we need to be copied in (inaudible) with travel constituency, because (inaudible) just run their normal course of (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Cheryl, I wasn't even going to cover that because I thought that was already being handled, if not well, moderately well.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Well, when I have (inaudible) information later today, I will get back to Veronica and say - Try reading what I wrote, which is the second option, not the first.
Alan Greenberg: I would ignore her at this point and go to Kevin and Steve. That's what they told us to do.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: It went to Kevin and Steve, with her copied-- a copy to her.
Alan Greenberg: Oh.
Heidi Ullrich: Yeah, Cheryl, I will mention that to them again today. I did not realize that. But I'll-- I saw your message, and I'll (inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And what she's written back to me - the very first one that takes me across my country first leaves me for four hours or five hours in the middle of the night in (inaudible) Australia and then has me hopping across to Johannesburg.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. Well, I'll mention it too. This is a waste of their time and our time if they cannot get this correct.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Absolutely.
Heidi Ullrich: Yeah.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And it's not travel constituency; this is ETB.
Heidi Ullrich: Yeah. I know-- I've spoken with Steve on this. And he does understand this. You want everyone to arrive in the best possible way.
Alan Greenberg: One of the problems is Veronica has a habit-- a history, if not a habit, of totally ignoring what you ask for and just going ahead and reserving it as if no one had made any suggestions. It's happened to me virtually every time where they book something completely different. They're coming back to me and saying - Do I really want this? I can get you there faster or cheaper. But at least have an interaction.
Heidi Ullrich: In addition, I've also requested for constituency travel that the chair, Cheryl, well be regularly updated on the arrival and departure days-- well, particularly, the arrival dates of the At-Large travelers to make sure that they arrive in due course-- in time for the full meeting.
Alan Greenberg: Cheryl, just out of curiosity, did you just do this on your own? Or was this in discussion with Veronica in response to a message you have gotten saying they've launched travel initiatives?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: No. It was before they launched travel initiatives.
Alan Greenberg: I haven't seen anything yet saying - Tell us when you want to travel. Maybe I'm the only one who hasn't. But I haven't.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: No. And neither had I.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I wrote in advance and said - Here are the cheapest prices in these choices of airlines.
Alan Greenberg: Okay, but this is still in advance. Launch had not happened yet. I'm trying to find out if I've missed some e-mail.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Right. You haven't missed an e-mail.
Alan Greenberg: Thank you very much.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: But what we have also not missed is the way that Veronica deals with these requests has also not been modified by (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Well, they're still using--
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And that does need to (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Cheryl, they're still using a form which you cannot fill out with any-- making any sense. Just the thoughts on the form make no sense for someone who's arranging this kind of travel.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And they are already giving the community-- The conversation is already going on in the community, as I noted with Evan, and I think Carlton and Dave were also a part of this as well. Or was it James? So you know, we can get things better and faster. That's not going to happen because that's against our travel policy. But to elevate the issue by giving additional frustration is not going to help at all. So let's try and avoid--
Carlton Samules: My situation with travel has always been that you have to fight with them. And I don't particularly care for that, quite frankly.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Right. We have to protect-- Carlton, we have to protect our people from that. Absolutely.
Carlton Samules: Yes. But, Cheryl, you know, it just seems to me to be so (inaudible) to have to be fighting with people to say-- A simple thing like saying - Look, here is a better route so that I don't spend 12 hours in the airport-- it's a big (inaudible) thrown back and forth.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes. Exactly.
Carlton Samules: I really don't have time for that. You know, I work-- I have too much things to do. I really--
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: All you're saying is what I believe every single one of our travelers would say to us. What I'm suggesting is we try and avoid this with what's happening at the higher level before the calls go out and the bookings get done.
Carlton Samules: I agree with you. If you can find a way to get to them, I'm happy to come along with you on this.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay, Alan, (inaudible) back in your court, but I think (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Okay. It's just expanded, but, yes, I understand.
Heidi Ullrich: Alan, just to follow up, should I inform constituency travel to hold off sending their invitations or welcome letters to At-Large travelers until you send your note to Kevin and Steve?
Alan Greenberg: Assuming that doesn't take then another three weeks to do it, yes.
Heidi Ullrich: I was thinking, if you could get it in by midday today, then I can tell them--
Alan Greenberg: It will definitely be in by your midday today.
Heidi Ullrich: Okay. Perfect. And then I will then tell them to hold off until that note is received, et cetera.
Alan Greenberg: Yep. They may not like what I say and tell me to go somewhere. I'm going to suggest that they pay some extra dollars on occasion, which may already be on their books and may not be. I don't know. They've made some very rational decisions in some places about booking people in the day before, so they don't stay in a lobby for 12 hours. And, other times, they've been completely ridiculous. So I can't read this, to be honest.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. All right. Heidi, it is going to involve you tangentially for a little bit longer. But we will do our best to make sure staff are not involved as such. Okay?
Heidi Ullrich: Appreciate that. Thank you.
Alan Greenberg: Well, you shouldn't be involved in the one-by-one decisions, unless things get to crisis mode.
Heidi Ullrich: Well, that's why--
Alan Greenberg: You should be involved in the policy ensuring that the At-Large can function effectively.
Heidi Ullrich: Exactly. I think that if I'm involved at considerable expense at this point, then things will hopefully flow smoothly (inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: – in a perfect world. Okay. So we really moved through to the first couple of action items from the last meeting. And, certainly, it seems like the details (inaudible) from the African region, et cetera, (inaudible) is sorted out. And some of that is still a work in progress as far as regions that get to go. But, I guess, the next step that affects us in this planning (inaudible) would be Matthias with the regional meetings that go on in December-- is to ensure that strong encouragement go sponsored travelers to make sure that they're getting their visas started as soon as possible for this trip.
Beyond that, can anyone think of anything that we need to watch for?
Alan Greenberg: No. The problem with visas is some embassies seem to want confirmed travel. Some simply want an itinerary. And they don't much care for changes. But I don't think you can tell ahead of time which any given embassy or consulate will ask for.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: It does come back to us needing to have booked ticketing-- at least itineraries for as many people--
Carlton Samules: – so you can tell where they have to go for visas and that kind of stuff.
Alan Greenberg: Well, there is transit visas associated. But just the visa into Nairobi-- their official rules say they need an itinerary before they can approve a visa.
Carlton Samules: Oh, that's a new piece of information I didn't have.
Alan Greenberg: Well, that seems to be what Kenya says in general.
Carlton Samules: Okay.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: This is why we definitely need all of our travelers to start (inaudible) the process now. And, in the case of many of them, me included, I can't start out until I have a ticket.
Carlton Samules: I need to check because I think there are only a couple of routes to go. You either go through London and Johannesburg, or you go directly from London to Nairobi. If I go directly from London to Nairobi, I have no problems.
Alan Greenberg: I will point out you don't want to have gotten your visa before now. So we haven't lost a lot of time. But we should lose too much in the future. The visas are only valid for three months. So, if you've gotten it much before today, you couldn't use it anyway.
Carlton Samules: Anyway. Right.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: But, Alan, is it going to take (inaudible) for some people? (Inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: You better believe it. Many of our people have other travel schedules. Giving away your passport for two weeks is not necessarily something you could do without careful thought.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Exactly. (Inaudible). Okay. Well, I think we definitely need to watch that (inaudible). Both Mali and Senegal are listed as countries that can take up to three months to (inaudible).
Carlton Samules: But this is not right now on the black list, just to make sure. That's a good idea.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Dave, if you can--
Alan Greenberg: Sudan probably is another one of those.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yeah. As a result of our ExCom call, we know who (inaudible) travelers are out of Africa just the same as we know who they are out of (inaudible) and everywhere else. I think we need to make personal outreach. We can't leave it for Fatimata and Tijani and Mohammed and Hawa to try and start this process in January or February. (Inaudible).
Sebastien Bachollet: Okay. This is Sebastien. I've taken care of the travel and not in link with the previous one. But I would like to see how we can handle the possibility to have Olivier coming to Nairobi-- maybe to have him the first on the list if somebody is not able to come. Hopefully not because of the visa question but because of time constraint or any other reason. It would be great because I think he do a lot of jobs for the At-Large in general, and it would be great if he could be with us in Nairobi.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you, Sebastien. Certainly, I'm very comfortable with that. What would everyone else think?
Alan Greenberg: Well, first of all, I think we need to talk to Olivier on whether he's available and to what extent he's likely to be able to come, even if we don't fund him-- because he says he's able to come doesn't mean we try to fund him. But it gives us some level of certainty that he will be there and will be making preparations. We may not know 'til late in the process that we have funds available for him, and it may be too late to start at that point. So I think we need (inaudible).
Sebastien Bachollet: He said he is willing to come. And we are trying to figure out how we can start to prepare everything to be ready as soon as (inaudible) funding.
Alan Greenberg: The situation is, if we don't fund him, he will not come. Is that correct? Or is he looking elsewhere also?
Sebastien Bachollet: He is looking to the other hats he can wear during the meeting. It's a NomComm possibility.
Alan Greenberg: Is he on the NomComm?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes, he is.
Sebastien Bachollet: Yes, he is.
Alan Greenberg: Then he will likely be funded for the travel part--
Sebastien Bachollet: No, because it's (inaudible). They not coming to Nairobi.
Alan Greenberg: Oh, okay. Sorry. I didn't realize that.
Sebastien Bachollet: It's one of the reasons why I am-- If it's a question of an extra day, we can always find solutions.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Sebastien Bachollet: But, here, it's a little bit more complicated. (Inaudible). But he's also looking for some part of the funding to come from the NomComm if possible.
Alan Greenberg: He's the only one I've heard listed in that context, so I would have no problem with it, if we have an extra travel slot that we're not trying to keep for use (inaudible).
Sebastien Bachollet: Okay. Thank you.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Heidi, we probably need to add that name to our existing sponsored travelers list with an automatic-- If a slot is not being used by any of the people above this line, then the people below this line are offered travel (inaudible)?
Heidi Ullrich: Okay. I'll make a note of that.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I think that makes sense.
Sebastien Bachollet: And, to let you know-- I will not say too much thing. But as the European regions, we hope that Desi will be able to come. She's going to some medical. And hopefully she will know that before middle-- just after middle of December-- I hope before the end of the month. But it's still one open question-- just to let you know what I know from the travel side from the European region.
Alan Greenberg: Thank you.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: All the more reason, Sebastien, to have Olivier's name and any other name that comes up (inaudible), so to speak. (Inaudible).
In terms of other action items, I think the only thing I haven't seen is the (inaudible) issue, which needs to be seen as a carryover item. Is that not the case?
Alan Greenberg: Wasn't there a briefing scheduled?
Unidentified Participant: For what?
Alan Greenberg: Vertical integration.
Unidentified Participant: I thought there was some sort of (inaudible).
Unidentified Participant: It's not scheduled yet.
Heidi Ullrich: Alan, the action item says that staff and Alan and Carlton are to organize a community column vertical integration/separation early next year.
Alan Greenberg: Oh, okay.
Heidi Ullrich: And, also, I have heard from staff that the document will be released end of the week.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. That's the issues report you're talking about.
Unidentified Participant: Yes.
Alan Greenberg: Heidi?
Heidi Ullrich: I believe so. I can confirm that.
Alan Greenberg: No. That one was delayed again due to the-- Unfortunately, Margie is the lead person on that, and she's been totally consumed with the STI work.
Heidi Ullrich: Yes. In fact, she was working on that on Sunday, she told me.
Alan Greenberg: It's quite clear she's working on it every day.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Oh, dear. Hopefully, that's (inaudible). So that actually brings us, I think, full circle because (inaudible) looking at the development of a white paper on work group mechanisms and how we can improve local and regional participation in the work groups, which is pretty much where we started (inaudible) at the beginning of this call.
And, certainly, I would like to propose as we do training for Nairobi that that be (inaudible) topic that we look at for our one-day workshop. That would include things such as any barriers to participation (inaudible), along with issues of (inaudible) as an outcome from the ombudsman's recommendations to the board. But Vanda (inaudible). That's probably something that we might want to do a (inaudible) design (inaudible). I'm talking formal presentation and then a little bit of roundtable or work-shopping of ideas. How do you all feel about that, because we do need to start lining up (inaudible) for our one-day workshop.
Carlton Samules: I think that using that as a one-day workshop-- as a focus of the one-day workshop is a good idea. But can I just invite everybody to think that-- about this. The principal element to more evolve the conversation is the definition of the amount of time it takes. It really is. And we need to think about it and shape and frame the issues in that context because I will tell you, if you have to-- To be able to participate effectively, you have to follow the issues, and that takes time. And, when you have working groups, it's even more involved. It takes a lot of time.
And I think that's all we need to tell people. You can't sign up for this unless you have a block of time that you can dedicate to it. It really is difficult. And I think that's what you have (inaudible), Cheryl. How much time do you have? And where can you invest that time?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. Some of that is predictable, which seems like the working groups that are standing or have long-term issues - the (inaudible)--
Carlton Samules: Precisely. That's why (inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Others will always have some acute periods--
Carlton Samules: Open-ended.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: – going on. I don't know that they're open-ended. (Inaudible). I think what we need to (inaudible) in the one-day workshop in Nairobi is how we can have more general support (inaudible) couple of people who can offer that significant time commitment (inaudible).
Carlton Samules: I agree.
Alan Greenberg: Cheryl, there's a whole bunch of hands up.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Sorry. (Inaudible). Dave, you, then Vanda, then Alan.
Alan Greenberg: They show in order, Cheryl, I think. I don' really care where I go. But I think (inaudible).
Carlton Samules: Vanda was first, Alan, and then me.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. (Inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: It's actually quite intelligent. It does order them.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Certainly more intelligent than I am right now.
Carlton Samules: It's early.
Unidentified Participant: Vanda?
Vanda Scartezini: Surely. I just forgot to clear mine. No. I have no problem with travel this time.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (Inaudible). Alan, go ahead.
Alan Greenberg: I just wanted to share something that's going on in another venue. The PDP working team, the one coming up with a new form of the PDP, has been working now for something like eleven months. And we've come to the conclusion that, if we want to meet the deadline of trying to have a document ready for a decision by something like June, that a face-to-face meeting would really be useful in trying to resolve some of the issues.
So we've started talking to staff about the possibility of such thing, which would need to be approved by staff; that is, there is funding and such. It would need to go to the PPSC, the parent body, and then to the GNSO. So it's not a given. But the discussions have started.
And we came out with some guidelines for how many people would be funded. And the world blew up because, among other things, the original guidelines said there should be one per constituency from each of the three business constituencies, commercial, and one for NCSG/NCUC. Now, ignoring the fact-- a number of facts-- or, rather, a number of details, that blew up in terms-- as one could expect. There must be equal representation. You cannot have three commercial people without three non-commercial people. And the discussion has included some rather strong statements, pointing out that, to a large extent, NCUC has not participated in this process. And there was a feeling that people should only participate if they already have been part of the discussion or, at least, they're willing to commit to the next six months. And the last statement that was made was-- And it's a very good one. It's interesting that nobody has been demanding the opportunity for more participation until suddenly a trip is planned.
People: (Inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: And it's interesting. And I'm still trying to figure out what the dynamics are, because it's not that people are demanding to get sent on a trip somewhere. It's really not the purpose of the trip that are the issue. It's the status associated with being included in the group.
People: (Inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: And there's a power issue. And it's a measurable issue of - Am I being treated equally and fairly? But there has been absolutely no lineup of people to start participating in the process and actually do the work. People will latch on this and say - Oh, everyone wants a free trip. I think it has nothing to do with a free trip and everything to do with - How the hell do we actually to work on the difficult processes? And so it's not just us that are having the problem. But it's a really difficult question, and I think we need to figure out how to fix it better than we have right now.
So I support the idea of spending a fair amount of time-- not the whole day, but some time, talking about it. But we really have to go into it with some sort of way to catch people's attention and get them thinking about it. And glib answers are not the ones we need. But this whole experience on the PDP working team has been quite interesting the last couple of weeks. And I still haven't figured out exactly what the issue is. It certainly is not a free trip to D2, to Washington, to London, or wherever it would be. It's something more than that. But it's really hard to get a handle on. I just wanted to share that. There's nothing we need to do about it. I don't know how (inaudible).
Carlton Samules: (Inaudible). For me, personally, that's very useful because it creates a different dimension in thinking about it.
Alan Greenberg: I mean, this particular group is absolutely crucial to come up with something that actually represents the views of all the people and all the groups. And it's a long enough process that people are changing as it goes along. But what suddenly wakes people up to the importance is when we start talking about a trip. And we're doing something wrong if we can't get people involved other than that. We are doing something wrong (inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I'm wondering, Alan, if it might be interesting to actually explore that as a little case study when we come to Nairobi. That could be very interesting.
Alan Greenberg: That will have-- That particular one will have played out by then.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Well, yes. It could be-- Dave, go ahead.
Dave: Sorry. Go ahead, Cheryl. I'm sorry.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (Inaudible). Go ahead, Dave.
Dave Kissoondoyal: What I wanted to say about the workshop for the Sunday, 7th of March-- I think we can make it like an ALAC day because, okay, there will be a lot of ALS from the African region. So we try to promote, okay, in Africa, people are aware. They know about ICANN. They know about (inaudible). I think that we ought to promote ALAC as well. This is my personal view. We want to tell them who we are, what we do, and how you can get involved in ALAC. So it would (inaudible)-- I think if you do it like (inaudible) for ALAC on that day.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And, of course, I think the opportunity to have local ALSs involved in the one-day workshop needs to be advertised and encouraged now so that the people realize (inaudible) African region moving in some way, shape, or form however we can, so people know that not only welcome but they're encouraged to be involved in the one-day workshop. And there needs to be a pitch (inaudible).
On that, I think it takes us to the next item on the agenda, which, of course, is what may or may not happen with the regional activities from the AFRALO showcase. And, hopefully, something (inaudible), possibly being on the Saturday.
And that, I guess, Alan, also (inaudible) back into the point you were making with travel. I gather from the travel dates-- Heidi, correct me if I'm wrong. (Inaudible) for people to arrive obviously. (Inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Can you use days, not dates? I don't have a calendar in front of me.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: The 6th. It's Saturday, the 6th.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: That's the majority.
Alan Greenberg: So we're assuming the first day of work is Sunday.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes. Correct. It may be that the first day of work for some (inaudible) region or involved in the regional activities would be on the Saturday. But that doesn't mean that they can't arrive on the Saturday, but they'll have to arrive early on Saturday.
Alan Greenberg: That decision needs to be made within days then.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And that's something that really isn't going to happen because this whole issue of no team assembly model for a regional showcase to support travelers from At-Large structures.
Alan Greenberg: But do we need to say that, on the assumption that we will put something together, the African travelers must be there for Saturday?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Heidi, as it's written--
Alan Greenberg: The African travelers that we're funding.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (Inaudible) all travelers that we're funding should be there on the Saturday. What we need to do is encourage that Saturday to be (inaudible) on the Saturday (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Leave that part to me. I'm asking what day-- If there is a potential for a regional meeting on Saturday, then we want all of the African people that we are funding, and there are five of them, to be there in time to work on Saturday. Is that--?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Correct.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. That's why I was suggesting that Heidi provide the work days, not the travel days. The travel days, you know, should fall out of that based on itineraries and things like that.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (Inaudible) back to you.
Alan Greenberg: To you, Heidi, or you, Alan, or you, Dave?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: You, Alan, and then (inaudible) Dave's hand is up.
Alan Greenberg: All right. My philosophy that I'm trying to get them to adopt is, if someone needs to be there for X morning-- Saturday morning, then they should arrive no later than Friday 2:00 in the afternoon or something like that. In other words, they have an opportunity to actually be there and go to sleep at a moderately good time. If they cannot-- If the flight gets-- the only practical flight gets in at 6:00 in the evening or 11:00 in the evening, they should come the day before. That's the practicality of what I'm trying to say to them. In other words, you should have an opportunity for a good night's sleep before you have to start working, even if your flight is an hour late.
Heidi Ullrich: Alan, the issue, I believe, is that of funding for that extra night. Who's going to be paying for that?
Alan Greenberg: What I'm saying is I believe it is ICANN's obligation to get you there in enough time to have a reasonable night's sleep before we expect you to work. And that means they pay hotel, and they pay per diem.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Go ahead, Dave.
Dave Kissoondoyal: I agree with Alan. I think, okay, we can have the regional meeting on Saturday. We have to reach there Friday night and then be ready Saturday morning for the meeting. It will be an opportunity because, okay, we are going to be involved in the workshop on Saturday. So one day prior, when we have the meeting, we can like do all the coaching and everything so that we have a good workshop on Saturday morning.
Alan Greenberg: If I may interject one more thing, when you need to arrive depends on how long your trip was. If you're flying on a two-hour flight, arriving at 8:00 in the evening is probably fine. Unfortunately, traveling from Africa to Africa often requires going through Europe. So it's not intuitively obvious if you look at a map how long a trip is. And one shouldn't make assumptions about these kind of things. Flying from west Africa to east Africa is not easy, and I would not recommend most of the airlines that do it within Africa.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Indeed. Carlton, go ahead.
Carlton Samules: Thank you, Cheryl. I just wanted to endorse what Alan said. This is a sensible, practical way to do it. Could we as a group then ask Alan to frame this-- just guidelines for the travel people so that they can get it right.
Alan Greenberg: You already did. I haven't done it yet. But it will be out before the day is gone.
Carlton Samules: That's a good thing, because, you know, it just makes sense that you take-- You've done a lot of work with this, obviously-- than most of us. This makes sense.
Alan Greenberg: I've traveled a lot.
Carlton Samules: I too, but I never sit down and do it. There's always somebody else doing it.
Alan Greenberg: To be quite candid, and let's not make this go on too long, I've had bad travel arrangements made by too many travel agents in my life that I learnt what I need.
Carlton Samules: Very good. (Inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you, gentlemen. Heidi--
Alan Greenberg: I've also actually worked with a good travel agent, once in my life.
Heidi Ullrich: Thank you, Cheryl. Again, just to clarify, the AFRALO showcase, there will be outside funding for that? Or there are efforts to get outside funding for that. I'm not clear on who's going to be covering the cost of that.
Alan Greenberg: I saw some e-mail saying someone is working with ICANN people to do that, including Nick, I thought.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Tijani has written to global partnership and, at the AFRALO meeting-- Correct me if I'm wrong, Dave-- they formed their subcommittee with a view to having something that is at least able to go forward in terms of term planning for such a showcase, because if they're trying to attract any sort of partnership funding opportunity from some organizations other than ICANN, you'd need that sort of planning, which gives us a likelihood of something happening (inaudible). I think we probably should see that, then, as it's not probably a good idea to plan it to be an open 9:00 a.m. staff (inaudible), it may be that the showcase runs in the p.m. of Saturday the 6th, which does allow us to work within the travel guidelines and framework we already have for (inaudible). Dave, that's something I'd like to have you take back to the workgroup on the African showcase.
Dave Kissoondoyal: Absolutely.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Heidi, your response to that, and then Dave.
Dave Kissoondoyal: Yeah. Cheryl, if you remember, in the AFRALO meeting we mentioned that, okay, we are going to contact the Internet Society, the AFNOCA, AfriNIC. And then (spoken in French). So all these agencies we are going to contact to bring like different ALS from different countries in the African region. We are going to see funding for that.
But, also, we mentioned that we are-- We have set up a working group to work on the funding aspect and the organization of the Nairobi meeting. Heidi was supposed to try to open a wiki page for the working group. So we are just waiting for the wiki page to be opened. And then we are going to start contacting the agencies. I have already talked to the CEO of AfriNIC because he's Mauritius. So I have already talked to him from my side. But, once the wiki is finalized, at least I can send him the link and et cetera with a correct project plan.
And then, at the same time, just from the list that Tijani has said, we are going to look on that list how many are going to be funded by the AfriNIC, how many are going to be funded by Internet Society, and who the (unintelligible) agency can bear because of how many ALS.
So, basically, I think, concerning to answer the question of Heidi, the funding for the workshop-- I would say that, okay, it will be there by the other agencies, apart ICANN.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Fine, which, of course, still means that, if we do the logistics that you're planning for the activity to start as a middle-of-day to evening activity, that will give us a higher likelihood of keeping in with our existing travel, ICANN travel sponsored arrangement as well. And we can encourage those five sponsored travelers (inaudible) to be given travel opportunity that fits in their-- as Alan has outlined. But if we're going to-- sponsored by other agencies, then we still need to make sure that the planning that our people, because I'd like to see as many of the ALAC and other regional leads be involved in this, then this is probably something that we need to be aware of so that the opportunity when they're discussing anything about Nairobi meeting for the board, I think, in a world where the AOC is clearly looking at genuine global participation and at participation that is involved and is inclusive not only on governance-- and let's face it; there's plenty of opportunity to get a governance within Africa interested, particularly if we bring it to some of the other agencies - (unintelligible), World Bank, (unintelligible), et cetera, all work in Africa and all could be attracted to something going on on the Saturday afternoon under the guise of the regional showcase. And, of course, (inaudible), which I know you're quite passionate about.
So, from my perspective, a little (inaudible) seeding of the concept now might go a long way. And it would be something that global partnership perhaps could take some specific advantages of. So I think we might need to work on this fairly closely with the African region and, of course, something we need to do sooner rather than later. And that means probably the board instructing meeting staff about this. And that's working with the Nairobi meeting organizers to see if and where they (inaudible) something on the Saturday afternoon or evening could be held.
Vanda Scartezini: It could be. Certainly, they will meet in some way. Normally, the board meets governments in those place because, you know, the smaller the place, the most important the presence of international group. And so it's something that maybe works like some flag to them to have more involvement.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: And it could fit within regional IGS plans and programming, as we did in Sydney, where we had the day before, on the Saturday afternoon, a UDA and internet (inaudible) and some local government people and British government people did explore some IGS activities (inaudible).
So, if we do a little pre-planning and try and leverage off what the region wants to do with its regional showcase, I think we could have something rather exciting happening.
Alan, go ahead.
Alan Greenberg: Several things, all driven off of comments that have just been made.
Number one, I'll point out this is a little bit late to be talking about a new meeting, especially when we're requesting either funding or space from ICANN. It really would have been nice if it had been talked about at the previous meeting instead of just in between them.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Tijani did (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: So, to some extent, good luck.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Hang on, now. Tijani (inaudible). The African region did approach global partnership, certainly, at the close or just after the close of the Seoul meeting.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. Number two, we're now talking about, if I understand correctly, a meeting that may start at noon, which has a completely different set of dynamics of when people need to get there. So I will try to cover that in my note. But, to be honest, it may make it so complex that their eyes will glaze over.
I will point out that asking ICANN at this point to fund an extra day of hotel and per diem so people can attend a meeting that is being sponsored by someone else or partially by someone else may well be a hard sell. I'm not quite sure how we do that. I make the--
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (Inaudible). I think this is where Dave was referring to things like ISOC and other organizations. For example, ISOC in Mexico funded the one-night accommodation and the per diem for ISOC chapter members who had parallel missions (inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Okay. And that's the question I was going to ask. When we're looking for outside funding, are we also looking at covering hotel and per diem for the extra day for these people attending it? I'm raising the issue; I don't need answer.
And, lastly, I'll point out that-- I don't have a good answer to this. But, if one of the larger sponsors that is being looked at is the (spoken in French), it really does highlight the fact that, in Africa, what we desperately need are some English-speaking ALSs. And they're not the ones (inaudible)-- They're not the group to ask to fund projects to try to get that aim. But it really does highlight that most of our support, or conceptual support, in Africa is French. And we really need to understand there's a good part of Africa that doesn't cover. I don't know how we fix that problem. I'm just highlighting the amusement of it-- that a meeting being held in east Africa--
Dave Kissoondoyal: (Inaudible).
Alan Greenberg: Anyway.
Vanda Scartezini: May I talk a little bit about the fellowship? The fellowship is FACL and On Africa. You make sure we'll bring most of the people from Africa itself to be in Nairobi.
Carlton Samules: Well, that's one tactic you could use to see if you can expand the English-speaking membership. But, Vanda, do you know how many from the English-speaking countries that have been--?
Vanda Scartezini: Well, no. I will receive this today, and I can send some figures for you.
Carlton Samules: Okay. Great. What Alan says is right. It's quite interesting.
Vanda Scartezini: Let me see if they arrived-- the mail from Janice.
Alan Greenberg: Do we have a target ending time for this meeting? I do have a few other things I have to do today.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: As soon as possible would be my response to that. Matthias, you had your hand up. And we've gone in reverse order. I apologize.
Vanda Scartezini: (Inaudible). Sorry.
Matthias Langenegger: I'm sorry. Really quickly, I have to leave now because I have to go to the airport. I will read up on the action items; then I will create the wiki for the working group tomorrow so that the working group can start on the Nairobi preparations.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Fantastic. Thanks, Matthias. Appreciate that. Travel well. Travel safe.
Matthias Langenegger: Thank you.
Vanda Scartezini: I'm still with my hands up.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes. Go ahead, Vanda.
Vanda Scartezini: Yeah. I would like to remember that I have asked some suggestions for the strategic plan, considering the AOC, that-- how we'll use-- Remember that I said I used the expression that Sebastien has used - One ALS for each country. But the board asked us to make some-- you know, some sentence, some idea more feasible for the new one or two years. And I need some ideas to deal with because, certainly, we're going to talk about this tomorrow. And I would like to have some suggestion how we can put this on the strategic plan. It's very important because one thing a strategic plan-- We maybe get funds and get a lot of things. So we need to think a little bit and come out with some ideas.
Carlton Samules: I think you could do it under the heading - To contribute to shaping a healthy internet ecosystem. You remember that last heading in the strategic plan? You could make the point that, you know, end user groups, a very important part of the internet ecosystem and the expansion of the end user voice in ICANN. Then it would be-- It would be a part of that goal. And then, therefore, we are proposing that we-- And the way we do it is having At-Large structures in countries. Therefore, we are proposing this.
Vanda Scartezini: Yeah. But I believe we should come at least suggest some ideas like increase 30% or something-- a figure to each region.
Carlton Samules: We have numbers that we can look to say how many countries don't have ALSs. (Inaudible) requires an action plan. And, quite frankly, part of it has to do with how the outreach goes. And that is-- For them, you have to have outreach on the ground. And a lot of it you people can provide connections in each country. But the outreach itself and working those people acidulously and working them consistently-- that is where the ICANN funding will have to take impact.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay.
Vanda Scartezini: What I heard in the debate in the board was that-- Which countries really express more participation? For instance, during the time we don't have China, China was a goal for the GAC, for instance. Russia is another goal. So we need to figure out-- Maybe I can get-- Where I can get all the ALSs, Heidi?
Carlton Samules: The first thing, Vanda, is that we know the countries where there are no ALSs. The second thing-- You have to find a substrate on which to build, and that substrate is a person - a person of interest. And what we can do-- some of us can do is to help find that person of interest, because, in all the things that we are involved in-- For example, I'm involved across the region. I go into just about every country. In some of the work I do through the university, through the CTU, and through my job as project manager for the research and education network project, I run into lots of people. The thing is that you have to find out if they have an interest and can do that. But to cultivate that interest in that person and then having that person bring in other people, that requires sustained work. And that is where the ICANN regional liaisons and those people have to come in, quite frankly.
Vanda Scartezini: No. Yeah. I believe this is the way to go but not the way to express the point into the strategic plan. There is a process we need to follow that we need some sentence for the strategic plan that represents the goal we need to reach in a couple years.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. (Inaudible).
Carlton Samules: My original sentence was--
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Carlton, Carlton, Carlton. There's lots of hands up, and yours isn't one of them.
Carlton Samules: Sorry about that.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: That's all right. Vanda, there's a few things being written in the chat space as well. Alan, did you want to respond? I think Vanda still has her hand up, but I think we need a dialog here. So, Alan, Sebastien, and then Carlton.
Alan Greenberg: Yes, I did want to respond. We have a really large problem that, in ICANN, we have pitifully little representation from real developing countries. Yes, there's a GAC person who sits there. Yes, we always have one or two token people on the board. But that's all we have typically. It is going to be a long process to get more active involvement. Until we get to the point where we have leaders evolving from these regions, we are going to have to bring a lot more people in because not everyone rises to be the leader.
We have to start actively bringing in-- The board members from developing countries, I think, need to be much more active in trying to get their colleagues involved. I think we need to make the case-- We, ICANN, and I'm talking at the strategic plan level-- We need to make the case that the needs in poor areas, in poorly connected areas are not going to be met when we're architecting domain name issues unless there are people from those areas in position to speak out articulately. We will not get to there unless we get more grass roots involvement and start getting people in so that, eventually, some leaders will evolve three and five years from now.
Carlton Samules: Precisely.
Alan Greenberg: We may be lucky to have one sooner, but we have to start investing, which means the people on the ground there need to understand this. And, at a senior level, we need to understand it. It's something we have to invest in so that, three or four years from now, when the ALC reviews get done that time, we have real results. It's not going to happen overnight. And we need to start planning-- We need to start planning and investing for it. And at least some of it has to be done at the At-Large level. There's other levels that it has to be done as well, obviously.
Carlton Samules: That's precisely--
Alan Greenberg: Sorry. I'll get off my soap box. But we're just not having the representation we need, other than the few token people, and it's never going to work at this rate.
Carlton Samules: Thank you, Alan. Well said.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Sebastien?
Sebastien Bachollet: Yeah. I want to be agree with what Cheryl (unintelligible). But maybe we can, too, see that in two different and opposite ways-- One way, it's to have strength in the next 18 months. Where there is a GAC member and a CC participant to the ICANN, we need to have one from-- we need to find an ALS in this country. And then, for the next 18 months, we need to find one where there is just one GAC or just one CC participating to the CCNSO. But maybe we can also draw a prize. And that will be that one from GAC, CC, and At-Large will be able to find somebody in one country, where no one of those groups are participating will win something. I have some idea about what we can win. But it's to push ICANN, in general, to be more inclusive. And, frankly, I will not-- I don't like the way saying that - Hey, we are missing this country. No. We are missing all the countries where we are not participating-- where we are not ALS, because it's-- because, one, it's more important on one others. For political reasons, yes, China was more important. But I will be very happy to have some eastern European countries, some English-speaking, African countries. We can have a lot of those countries to try to find participation.
But I want to take this opportunity to add one point. If we are not able in the country where we are to have different people to represent the different groups within ICANN - commercial, non-commercial, end users, GAC, and CC - we start to see that we will have very hard difficulty. And we have to do both. We need to find somebody in each country to participate and just to participate to the At-Large activity.
And my sentence-- When we find somebody-- and I say "we." It could be others. But, when somebody is found in one country, immediately, you have a lot-- a lot of people going on his shoulder to ask them to do work within the IGF, within the ISOC, within the ICANN, and so on and so forth. And what we need to convince them is to stay for a while with us. Thank you.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you, Sebastien. Carlton, did you want to follow through now?
Carlton Samules: Well, no, Cheryl. I think Alan said exactly what my thinking was on this thing. It has to deepen, and I will go with Alan's statement. It says perfectly what I would have said anyway.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. Vanda, if you look to some of what has been said here and some of the words that have gone-- that have been captured into the chat, I think the language using the healthy internet ecosystem and that this will feed across multiple parts of the ICANN infrastructure-- And I think it's very timely that we have the example of the LACRALO dashboard, which, of course, gives a very clear listing of, at least, the nexus or lack of nexus within each country within the AFRALO region for ccNSO, GAC, and ALS activities. I mean they're more measurable. Even the engineers on the board should (inaudible).
Vanda Scartezini: Okay. I will come out with some ideas and exchange in Skype or something like that with you before I talk tomorrow.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yeah. But I think what we do need to do also, Vanda, is say (inaudible) the At-Large intention of working more closely with global partnership and other regional activities within the internet ecosystem-- for example, regional IGF and (inaudible) meetings. I really think we need to get those words out there so that we're not operating as ICANN in isolation. Go ahead, Alan.
Alan Greenberg: Yeah. I'll just point out that, as annoying as the particulars are to us right now, it's a telling tale that we have people who-- that people are spread so thinly. And there are so few people participating that the same person sits on ALAC and the ccNSO or ALAC and the GAC. And that's the problem we have to address. And it's going to take concerted effort, and it's a long-haul problem.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Indeed. It's (inaudible) five-year plan but is one that we have to do. And it will give us benchmarking for this set of (inaudible) and the next steps. And, again, I think that's important language to pick up. Dave, any thoughts from you on this, because you've been far too quiet.
Dave Kissoondoyal: What I think-- Okay, we have-- ICANN should be inclusive. Like, we have to include the maximum number of participants from different countries. I don't know why the ALS has to be restricted one for each country because, okay, from my experience or from my point of view, that-- If you get an ALS representative from one country and if that person is not doing his job properly or is not going to the grass roots level reporting to us, is being distressed in the instances in that, okay, the whole process fails. The whole country, because the representative-- The whole country is penalized. So I think that, okay, a representative-- It should not be limited to one ALS per country.
Alan Greenberg: And, typically, one person per ALS who's often the only active person around.
Sebastien Bachollet: Well, we're talking-- It's not one ALS per country.
Vanda Scartezini: At the least.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: It's a minimum.
Sebastien Bachollet: At least it's to say-- In each country, we need at least one ALS. It's not to say that in the country where you have nine it's a bad idea, even if so. But the objective is to have at least one. Yes.
Alan Greenberg: We're looking for spread here.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Sebastien, what you've just said is very important because (inaudible) because Dave interpreted it as a restriction possibility when, in fact, it's an expansion option. Of course, I would start questioning a reverse allocation to expand outreach and develop another three ALSs-- for example, North America or Canada-- compared to central Asia and central Africa. I think, if we look towards getting a minimum involvement level of one ALS per country, that's a laudable aim and one that I know a number of the regions have as part of their performance indicators and retention.
Heidi-- Go on, Alan.
Alan Greenberg: I was just going to say that, from an ICANN resources point of view, it's reasonable to say we need the first ALS in Uganda. It would be hard to justify saying why they should put money into finding the fifth.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yeah. Indeed. Okay. Now, we've come up to the (inaudible) strategic planning (inaudible). We're not going to have time, energy, and I certainly have no inclination to try and deal with it all. So I'm suggesting we stop our agenda here. We move some of the (inaudible) planning and, of course, the feeding into the major step planning of ICANN, which is now on the ALAC and At-Large to-do list. We need to integrate that and put some time into that in the PAD in advance of our ALAC meeting on the 22nd. But what I'd like to do is move this topic across for discussion to the ALAC meeting on the 22nd. And I'd like to have less on the agenda and larger amounts of time devoted to a couple of topics on the agenda for that December meeting. That would mean we would be focusing on discussion of the white paper that we proposed, on the appointment process for the At-Large director, and the implementation of our improvement as a result of our review. That feeds into our micro step planning ourselves.
And the only other matter I would like to see as a major event on the 22nd of December's meeting to the ALAC is the operational and strategic planning input and how we're going to involve the regions. I propose at that meeting that our January meeting is one that is an ALAC and regional leaders meeting in preparation for what we want to do face to face in Nairobi but very specifically looking at how we can increase involvement in our working group activity.
How does that sit with everyone?
Alan Greenberg: As long as we manage our time well, I'm fine.
Carlton Samules: It's a long list. I agree, Cheryl. It's a long list though. I don't think we're going to get through all of that.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Well, what do we cut?
Carlton Samules: I think we should keep the involvement in the participation element. I think we need to keep that one in. I think we need to look at the specific elements of the strategic plan and let us, at least, frame where we think we can bring in some At-Large-specific items onto these themes. And I think that's going to take pretty much two hours.
Alan Greenberg: Did everyone die?
Heidi Ullrich: No. Cheryl just left us. I'm having Adigo call her back quickly.
Carlton Samules: Oh.
Alan Greenberg: I guess she didn't like what you said.
Vanda Scartezini: People, I need to go. It's raining in Sao Paulo, so it's everything, you know, is stuck.
Carlton Samules: Everything closes down, just like Kingston, Vanda. Don't worry about it.
Vanda Scartezini: Thank you. Thank you. Pray for me, please.
Carlton Samules: A little rain, and everything closes down here too.
Vanda Scartezini: Bye-bye.
Carlton Samules: Bye-bye. Take care.
Dave Kissoondoyal: Bye-bye.
Carlton Samules: Alan? Alan, are you with us?
Alan Greenberg: Yeah. I'm here.
Carlton Samules: I'm looking at my schedule here, and I'm thinking that probably the Friday. I'm free in the afternoon.
Alan Greenberg: Friday I have open, so you set the time.
Carlton Samules: Okay. So, can we say-- You're on Eastern time. Right?
Alan Greenberg: Yep.
Carlton Samules: Okay. So maybe we could speak at 2:00 on Friday afternoon?
Alan Greenberg: 2:00 your time or my time?
Carlton Samules: We are on the same time.
Alan Greenberg: Oh, we are?
Carlton Samules: Yes, yes. We are now.
Alan Greenberg: Oh. I didn't realize that.
Carlton Samules: Yeah. We are on the same time - Eastern time.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Carlton Samules: So 2:00 p.m.
Alan Greenberg: 2:00 p.m. - Carlton - Skype.
Carlton Samules: Right. Skype.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Carlton Samules: I'll call you on Skype.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Carlton Samules: All right. Thank you.
Alan Greenberg: Thank you. Bye-bye. Is this call over now, or are we trying to get (inaudible)?
Carlton Samules: I'm waiting for Cheryl to come back. Is Cheryl back?
Heidi Ullrich: She should be. Adigo said they've reached her.
Carlton Samules: Oh, good. We need to close it out though. It's 11:00. I actually-- I have a call in for our workgroup. I'm on the national advisor council for information. And we have our quarterly meeting. I'm running late for it.
Heidi Ullrich: Cheryl's--
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: We're winding up. I missed what you were saying, Carlton. But I think, yes, I'd rather have larger lumps and a smaller number of things devoted. We do have to address what we said we would do with the appointment of director as well. Can we then have our dates and our tentative arrangements and our doodles done for purpose our community call during January to specifically look at the strategic and operational plan?
Carlton Samules: That might be a way to put it on the agenda. Yes.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yeah. Okay. So that's going to fall very much back to you, I'm afraid. But I think it's possibly the best way forward on that.
Carlton Samules: Okay. I'll take a note of it, and I'll work with the staff to set up a doodle on that.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yep. Fantastic. Well, staff is very good at doodle. But, instead of waiting 'til we have the meeting to discuss doing doodles, let's get them (inaudible) and basically have them as (inaudible) at the meeting on the 22nd. Alan, are you happy with that?
Alan Greenberg: Yep.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Sebastien, are you happy with that?
Sebastien Bachollet: Yep.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Dave, happy with that?
Dave Kissoondoyal: Yeah. Absolutely.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: All right, then, Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, Heidi.
Heidi Ullrich: Thank you.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you, (unintelligible).
People: (Inaudible).
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (Inaudible) you're going to continue to your next meeting, so I hope that it's profitable and we haven't held you up too much. Thanks again.
Alan Greenberg: Cheryl, are you on Pedner today?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Say it again.
Alan Greenberg: Are you on Pedner today?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Which is in a couple of hours, isn't it?
Alan Greenberg: It is in three and a half hours.
Carlton Samules: Good luck.
Alan Greenberg: I'm not trying to talk you into it; just asking if you were planning--
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: No, no. I'm planning on being on that. And then I've got an AGN staffing 30 minutes after Pedner finishes and then a day at a conference.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. I've got to go and try to figure out STI, which is blowing up at the moment. Bye-bye.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Okay. Dave, you're going to be on Pedner as well?
Dave Kissoondoyal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm joining in three and a half hours.
Alan Greenberg: Okay.
Heidi Ullrich: Alan? Alan and Cheryl?
Alan Greenberg: Yes. I'm here.
Heidi Ullrich: Just very quickly, any suggestions, or just a confirmation perhaps, for the moderator for the working group or the call on the domain names registered using private and proxy? Is that Patrick? Should we approach Patrick for that?
Alan Greenberg: I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't know who's been involved in that. I would think Patrick is probably a good one.
Heidi Ullrich: Okay. I will write him a note.
Alan Greenberg: Certainly, he's a good one to ask.
Heidi Ullrich: Okay.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: I think he'd be well worth asking.
Heidi Ullrich: Okay.
Alan Greenberg: Bye-bye.
Heidi Ullrich: Thanks very much. And, Cheryl?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yeah.
Heidi Ullrich: One last question for the community call on the second-to-last-- last call-- promise. For the call on the At-Large implementation next week, are you going to be the moderator for that?
Alan Greenberg: At implementation?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yeah, I will.
Heidi Ullrich: Yeah. There's another doodle. Our fourth doodle-- our fourth community call.
Alan Greenberg: I don't know what the subject is. Sorry.
Heidi Ullrich: The At-Large implementation review.
Alan Greenberg: Oh, the implementation of the review.
Heidi Ullrich: Yes.
Alan Greenberg: I didn't even know it was on the agenda.
Sebastien Bachollet: It's not yet on the agenda for the moment on the doodle. We are still waiting for an answer. But if you put your doodle requirement, obviously--
Alan Greenberg: I hadn't even seen it. I will try to look for it. But, right now, I'm somewhat over committed for the next five hours.
Sebastien Bachollet: I guess, Heidi, for this meeting, it could be better to have Cheryl. If she can chair it, it would be great.
Heidi Ullrich: Do you agree?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yes. Happy to agree.
Alan Greenberg: Okay. I got to go. Bye-bye.
Heidi Ullrich: Okay. Thank you. Thanks, all.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Bye.
People: Bye.
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