Sub-group Members: Alan Greenberg, Avri Doria, Barbara Wanner, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Chris Wilson, David McAuley, Jean-Jacques Subrenat, Michael Karanicolas, Philip Corwin, Ricardo Holmquist, Robin Gross, Wale Bakare. (11)
Staff: Bernard Turcotte, Karen Mulberry, Larisa Gurnick, Yvette Guigneaux
Apologies: Ed Morris, Herb Waye, Julf Helsingius
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
Word Doc
PDF
Recording
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://participate.icann.org/p79lkkl28kt/
The audio recording is available here:
Notes
Documents Presented
[Ws2-transparency] Draft WS2 Transparency Document.pdf
Chat Transcript
Yvette Guigneaux: Welcome to the Transparency Subgroup | Meeting #5_ 21 October 2016 @ 19:00 UTC!
Yvette Guigneaux: This meeting will be recorded. Press *6 to mute and unmute your phone
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Hello all!
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Thanks.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Hi JJS
Chris Wilson: I am x6514
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Hello All!
Yvette Guigneaux: Michael & Chris - can you hear me?
BERNARD TURCOTTE: hi all
Michael Karanicolas: Audio is working for me - let me just test mine.
David McAuley (RySG): Hi Yvette, I am 4154
David McAuley (RySG): small Friday group
Yvette Guigneaux: HI David - good day and thanks for the number
Chris Wilson: dedicated bunch!
Barbara Wanner: Hi Yvette -- I am phone #2026173155. Thanks
Yvette Guigneaux: Hi Barbara - copy that and thank you!
David McAuley (RySG): Sounds good Michael
Chris Wilson: Ed Morris just sent some comments to the list serv.
Yvette Guigneaux: Everyone can scroll the document now if need be- just fyi
David McAuley (RySG): I don't have feedback on exec summary or background
Chris Wilson: From Ed: My congratulations on one of the most thorough and impressive pieces of work I’ve seen produced by an ICANN working group. I regret I haven’t been as active in this group as I had anticipated as a mixture of illness and meeting conflicts (including tonight: Friday evenings European time are just not doable for me) have limited my participation but I did want to share these thoughts with the group: 1. On page 8 there is a factual error. It is stated: “Currently, appeals against refusals or other non-compliance with the DIDP are handled by the Ombudsman”. That is not true. Appeals against a denial of information from ICANN under the DIDP are properly matters for a reconsideration request or IRP. Here is one such appeal which I wrote and was filed by the Noncommercial Stakeholders Group: https: //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_pages_13-2D11-2D2014-2D02-2D13-2Den&d=DQIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=xjNMRR-fjlgBx7tqUEv8lZv2O9RJyMyqWkymcecegCUuwDxFVsW6VBuvkqKnS_lk&m=8sUg7SzkjqTznaaK6TzmkXcBZ3Wr0b7_J4VL_CBeL_g&s=30RAl4qX3ISea_ylyuwyOdWqpqvctX2UEVF1xR0LAHk&e= . Appellate procedures for DIDP refusals are also mentioned on the ICANN website under ‘Appeal of Denials’ here: https: //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_pag&d=DQIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=xjNMRR-fjlgBx7tqUEv8lZv2O9RJyMyqWkymcecegCUuwDxFVsW6VBuvkqKnS_lk&m=8sUg7SzkjqTznaaK6TzmkXcBZ3Wr0b7_J4VL_CBeL_g&s=J-DqBIp42bBPDS3nH8IkUiQ_6RT9IU8XuDM-RVsTvhM&e=
Chris Wilson: Actually, he has said more, but too much to put in chat. Perhaps Bernie or Yvette and cut and past his email into the notes section or put up on screen?
Wale Bakare: Hi everyone
David McAuley (RySG): I love the idea of getting ICANN feedback
David McAuley (RySG): good idea
Chris Wilson: Good idea
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Chris +1.
avri: i worry about doucments that canot be found through any searrch method and an expansive notion and use of vexatious arequest accusations.
David McAuley (RySG): fair point Avri but ICANN would face the same hurdle, no?
avri: ICANN knows what documents they have, and what they are called &c. we often don't
David McAuley (RySG): what about email archives, e.g., for group like ccwg
Alan Greenberg: Sorry to be late.
avri: eail is not a charactersitc example
Ricardo Holmquist: sorry for being late
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Michael et al: page 9, para. 3 speaks of "the Ombudsman's mandate": to be accurate, does he have a mandate resulting from a vote, or is it simply his "responsibility"?
Yvette Guigneaux: Working on it now
Alan Greenberg: mandate can refer to responsibility due to being elected but it also just means a commission to do something.
Chris Wilson: Thanks, Yvette!
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Alan: that's right, but in a loose sense.
Yvette Guigneaux: You're welcome Chris
Yvette Guigneaux: Scrolling of the email available now - just fyi
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Alan and Michael: elsewhere, there is a mention of the Ombudsman's "remit", which is more accurate than mandate or even responsibility.
Yvette Guigneaux: There was a second email from Ed with a correction - please note: My apologies: I just noticed a typo in paragraph 11 of my recent post to this group. "With" should have been "within". It makes a difference. I certainly do not believe he information requestor should have a give a reason for a DIDP request. Sincere apologies for the error. per Ed
avri doria: agree with Ed, DIDP should stand on it on as a requirement, and given the difficulty we are having in getting ICANn to accept human rights repsect, i would not like to see Transparency undercut byut the lack of observance of HR.
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Michael +1. We could simply mention the principle in a couple of sentences, and refer to the work in the group dealing with Human Rights.
David McAuley (RySG): good point Avri
David McAuley (RySG): I think Avri's distinction makes sense
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Avri +1: good distinction, that's what I was suggesting.
Wale Bakare: @Avri + 1
Yvette Guigneaux: 202 and 703#'s if you can see the chat, please kindly identify for the record?
David McAuley (RySG): I would be reluctant to seek legal advice on the background section of the document
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Michael: I'm not suggesting we NOT mention those international law references. Rather, I plead that we ADD the unique status of ICANN and that it serves the global public interest.
David McAuley (RySG): sounds fair
David McAuley (RySG): will depend on the wording
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Suggestion: "While fully complying with the US laws which apply to ICANN as a US corporation, the corporation has a wider responsibility towards the global Internet community worldwide. These two sets of requirements are not contradictory, but complimentary".
David McAuley (RySG): Well put, Alan
David McAuley (RySG): We are pursuing what amounts to a self-evident need
Wale Bakare: >>I plead that we ADD the unique status of ICANN and that it serves the global public interest<< I think, we need to clearly look at suggestion made by @JJS
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Alan: nowadays, in addition to law(s), there are universal standards, norms, requirements. I agree with Michael that we should at least mention the legal references.
Alan Greenberg: @JJS, yes, but they aare not the reason that ICANN *MUST* do it rather than why they should.
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Michael: review should be part of an escalation process; so internal redress as a first step is appropriate.
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Alan: you're right, and I was not suggesting that ICANN "must"...
avri doria: do we define what is 'absolute;y necessary'
avri doria: i think any defintion has to be alterable by th community without necessarily needing to redraft bylaws.
Chris Wilson: Do we want to at least consider certain subject matters that the presumption is against non-disclosure?
David McAuley (RySG): I agree with Alan
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): ,yup
Yvette Guigneaux: Chris or Michael - Do we need Brett's email on screen?
Michael Karanicolas: no - i think it's ok
David McAuley (RySG): This is another area where it would be good to hear the ICANN perspective along the way
Yvette Guigneaux: Copy that
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: Chris: we should avoid such shorthand, because this text is aimed at people, not all of whom were on the ICG, CCWG or CWG. I would insist on putting the right words.
Chris Wilson: yes. understood
avri doria: I would like to suggest an additonal requirement, somethin like trequiring that the program be audited every 3 years by an outfit such a NAVEX
David McAuley (RySG): On hotline access questuion, I personally think this sounds like a good idea but would like to think about it further. I was able to read this good whistleblower write-up but only quickly and want to read again.
Michael Karanicolas: Avri - I think we have a requirement of that, when it says that there sholuld be subsequent audits
Michael Karanicolas: but certainly, I think there needs more clarify on when, and I was going to ask
avri doria: must have missed it in my quick read. apologis.
Michael Karanicolas: you're suggesting 3 yrs? which seems reasonavble to me
avri doria: and i am suggesting a continuing priodic audit, not a one time of the changes we make now.
David McAuley (RySG): Nicely done document, Barbara
avri doria: i agree that the policy should be on the ICANN web site and visible to all.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Yes I am wondering what te harm in wider access is as well
David McAuley (RySG): good question to take up next call
Ricardo Holmquist: I should say none, but we should divide who goes by the ombudsman, and who is going by the whistleblower
Yvette Guigneaux: Time check - top of the hour
avri doria: will staff allow it to be submitted Monday?
Chris Wilson: CCWG is what we are talking about
BERNARD TURCOTTE: its n ot ICANN its the CCWG
David McAuley (RySG): as long as it shows DRAFT
David McAuley (RySG): good question Bernie - i was wondering
David McAuley (RySG): soubnds good
Jean-Jacques Subrenat: @Michael: yes for footnote.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Great progress on all this people ... Good call Thanks... Bye for now...
BERNARD TURCOTTE: bye all
Ricardo Holmquist: ty Mihael, good call
Wale Bakare: Thanks, bye
David McAuley (RySG): Thanks Michael, Chriss, staff and all
Barbara Wanner 2: Thanks everyone