Dev Anand Teelucksingh: My name is Dev Anand Teelucksingh, LACRALO Secretariat. This is a call to discuss… Is Jose Arcé on the call now?
Sylvia Vivanco: Yes, he says “Thanks, you too.”
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay. Well alright, let me just formerly start for the interpreters. I just wanted to send a message to the Spanish channel. This is Dev Anand Teelucksingh, LACRALO Secretariat. This conference call, I just want to begin the conference call as it’s now ten minutes past the hour, and just Jose, I just want to confirm that I would like to Chair the call.
Let’s hope the translation is working.
Matt Ashtiani: It is, Dev.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Excellent. And any response from the Spanish channel or did it go through? Hmm.
Sylvia Vivanco: On the Spanish channel we have Sylvia Leite, Fatimata Cambronero, Javier, Natalia, and Sylvia Vivanco. We are all in the Spanish channel.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, okay. On the English channel, let me just repeat who’s on the English channel. We have Carlton Samuels, Cintra Sooknanan, Lance Hinds, Jean-Marie Altema, Roosevelt King and of course myself, Dev Anand Teelucksingh. And from staff we have Heidi Ullrich and Gisella Gruber-White.
Carlton Samuels: And Olivier, the Chair of the ALAC.
Matt Ashtiani: Matt is also here.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, and the ALAC Chair Olivier Crépin-Leblond is also on the call as well. Okay. The agenda for this call was to discuss the Geographic Regions draft final report. The links are in the agenda notes and I hope persons have read it.
On the Thursday call I did send a link to a Google spreadsheet talking about the impact of the Geographic Regions report if adopted on the Latin American and Caribbean Region, and especially the Caribbean Region. I don’t think I really need to go into it now except I will simply post the link again in the chat for those who didn’t see it before.
But actually before I really start this call, I believe Heidi wants to make an announcement regarding the translation services. Heidi, are you ready to say something?
Heidi Ullrich: Yes, actually Dev, this is Heidi and I want to give the honor of giving this good news to our Language Services Manager Christina Rodriguez who is on the Spanish channel. So I’m going to hand it over to her to let everyone know that we are using new interpretation and new interpreters today. Christina, could you please make the announcement?
Christina Rodriguez: Yes, good evening everybody, at least good evening for myself, actually. This is Christina Rodriguez from ICANN Language Services, and I’m really pleased to announce that this is actually our kickoff conference call with the interpreters and the new interpretation system that we are using to provide this service for your conference calls. I’m going to ask you to be nice to our interpreters. These are the same interpreters that you see in every ICANN meeting or that you hear in every ICANN meeting.
The system was set up specifically to provide services for your calls and for all At-Large and the RALOs and the ALAC calls. As I said before, this is the very first call that our interpreters are working on. I’m going to ask everybody to please, whenever you want to speak, don’t forget to announce your name. When somebody’s speaking in one channel do not speak on the other channel among yourselves, and just make sure that you can please take the time and don’t speak on top of each other on any point.
This will make the afterwards transcription of the session a lot better and it will make a lot more sense when you read it through for your next call, and I hope everything goes well. I wish the best for the call. I will be monitoring the call on the two channels to see how everything works and I invite anybody, Heidi or Dev, to get back to us with any feedback on the call and on the interpretation services that you will be receiving from now on.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, this is Dev Anand. Thank you, Christina, and go ahead, Heidi. Okay. Okay, thank you Christina. This is Dev Anand Teelucksingh. Now regarding the ICANN Geographic Regions draft final report I’ve given a brief summary of what is the key issue here – that’s in regards to how it affects the Caribbean. Currently we are 33 countries in LACRALO – 17 countries in the Latin American Region and 16 countries in the Caribbean Region. That’s how we are; that’s the current situation.
If the recommendations from the Geographic Regions report is adopted the number of countries in LACRALO will be reduced to 29 countries because we’ll be gaining five territories but nine Caribbean territories or countries will go to the North American Region. So the end will be that there will be 20 countries in the Latin American Region and 9 countries in the Caribbean Region.
What I hope to achieve on this call is to get some feedback as to what do people feel about this and what should be our response to this because it does affect us and we obviously must respond. With that, I’m going to now open the floor to any questions or anyone who wishes to make any statements. Does anybody wish to make a comment?
Carlton Samuels: It’s Carlton.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, Carlton Samuels, please go ahead.
Carlton Samuels: Thank you, Dev. I, as a member of the Geographic Regions Working Group, I want to make a couple of things very clear. The report that we produced made sure to say “If we were to normalize the use of geography in ICANN affairs it would be best for us to choose one formation of what is geographic to work with,” and that is the geographic regions as defined for the regional internet registries. We further stated that even in the case of the RIRs, there are some anomalies and in order to ensure that we have an open and transparent way to deal with the anomalies, we recommended that countries be given the option to choose where they will go.
In the case of the Caribbean, it would mean that famously our colleagues in Trinidad & Tobago and Guyana and in Surinam if they become a part of this, for one become a part of the Latin American Region as defined by the regional internet registries. That is the first cut. But even after this, our colleagues do have the right as we recommend to choose to migrate, and to migrate where they would wish to be. And this migration now means they can move from the Latin American Region to the North American Region.
I personally have one preference. I have a preference that the Caribbean remains as a distinct unit within whatever region that we finally decide to be. That is my distinct preference. The issue is not just about geography for us. It is about effective representation in ICANN Councils. And to the extent that we have effective representation, that is what will determine what I would recommend that we do. That is the basis for any intervention that I see as relevant to this issue. It’s about effective representation of the Caribbean as a distinct cultural and socioeconomic entity within the names and numbers policy development space. Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Carlton. I see Cintra Sooknanan. Cintra, please go ahead.
Cintra Sooknanan: Thank you, Dev. This is Cintra Sooknanan. I just want to echo Carlton’s point about keeping the Caribbean Region as a block. While the Working Group’s report states that it’s really the countries that have been recommended to move that have the option to stay, I don’t know if perhaps, Carlton, you can clearly say that with Trinidad & Tobago and Guyana and Surinam actually have that option.
My reading of the report was that the countries, Barbados no, and all the other countries would not really want to have that option; and then I suppose our recommendation would have been to move with them based on our cultural size to the rest of those countries. So Carlton, I don’t know if you can clarify that point, please.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: This is Dev. Carlton, do you have a response to that?
Carlton Samuels: Yes, the recommendation is clear that even though the purely as a matter of geography, and that is just an exercise in which we look at the geography and we say “By virtue of the RIR combination with the geography, then Trinidad & Tobago, Guyana and Surinam would be in the Latin American space.” They do have the option and we do recommend that in the event that you don’t particularly appreciate being in that space that you have the option, a one-time option of moving to where you’re comfortable.
My point is that all of those, that option is still available to Guyana and Surinam and Trinidad & Tobago. I would wish, however, that in the event that it came down to that we would move as a group. The primary impulse for the Caribbean is to remain as a single unit. So whether we are in Latin American and Caribbean or we move to North America, the point is all of us are going to be in one space.
And that is my obvious preference, and I’m saying that the issue of whether we move or not is dependent on one and only one thing – effective representation in the names and numbers policy development process.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Carlton. Does somebody else wish to say something? This is Dev, sorry.
Okay, this is Dev Anand. Actually, Carlton, I think that’s probably one of the first comments we have to make regarding this, because paragraph #50, the way paragraph #50 is worded in the Geographic Regions report, it says that “Every country whose regional allocation is due to be changed be given the option of remaining in their current region, and it is envisaged that this would be a one-off opportunity and that the request should be initiated or supported by the local government of the relevant country or territory.”
So the way that is worded, it implies that for countries that are not affected by the change – namely Trinidad & Tobago, Guyana and Surinam – don’t really have any say in this matter. And I think perhaps that’s one of our comments that should be made, that-
Carlton Samuels: No, actually no, Dev. I mean you always have a say. Right now we are ipso facto in the Latin American Caribbean Region, and therefore there is no movement for Trinidad & Tobago, Guyana as it is right now. But in the event that the rest of the Caribbean, and the rest of the Caribbean as you know because of the RIR location, is now in the North American Region. Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago can opt to move to the North American Region. Equally valid, all of us else in the Caribbean can opt to move to the Latin American Caribbean Region to remain with Guyana, Surinam and Trinidad & Tobago. That is possible.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, alright. Does anybody have any… I see, okay Fatima, I see your hand is raised; and then Cintra. So Fatima, please go ahead.
Fatima Cambronero: This is Fatima. I have a question for Carlton. He was talking about something that I didn’t understand. Not all the Caribbean countries are affected by these modifications when it comes to geographical regions, for example Guyana and Trinidad & Tobago are not affected. So why do you talk about keeping or staying in one block? Where do you see that possibility? Shouldn’t this report be modified for you to have the possibility of changing the geographic territory? Thank you.
Carlton Samuels: Can I answer? I’m not sure what Fatima means, but let me explain again.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Say your name, Carlton.
Carlton Samuels: This is Carlton Samuels. The baseline requirement is that you follow first of all the lines of the regional internet registries – that’s a baseline requirement. Requirement number one: harmonize around the geographic lines as presently predicated in the regional internet registries. In that context, Surinam, Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago – they are all a part of the LAC NIC region. So that’s the first one.
The second issue is, if you are not happy with where you are regardless of where you are, you have the right to decide to move to another region. And in this case in the Caribbean, the other region that is available is the North American Region. The rationale for that would be that we would wish for the Caribbean to remain as a single compact entity by virtue of all the other things that connect us. We are connected by [characom], we are connected by language, we are connected by a single culture and all of these things.
That is what it says. So it is not a question of them being not affected. If you look at the report in its entirety you will see how they might be affected and what might transpire from any decision that they might make.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you Carlton. Let me, okay… Let me ask Cintra to contribute and then I’ll come back to you, Fatima. Cintra, go ahead.
Cintra Sooknanan: Thank you, Dev. I would like to make a few statements to perhaps well clarify terms in Fatima’s query. Can you hear me?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well yeah, you have a little bit of line noise. I’m not sure from who, okay, it’s gone now. Go ahead.
Cintra Sooknanan: Right. The importance of the Caribbean Region staying together, it goes deeper than just language. It’s ingrained in us, our cultural history, our geography as well as the fact that we are, the majority of us islands, and we suffer from the same regional issues – a hurricane. It is ingrained in us, our whole way of living, everything is quite similar.
So for Trinidad & Tobago, I am going to speak as a Trinidadian – to move or to [cede] without the rest of the Caribbean Islands, it’s unimaginable for us, right? By extension I do also want to leverage on what the Working Group report [seeks], where they don’t only [seek] operations which is the location of the RIRs but they also [seek] the importance of participation as well as representation.
So in my view, representation in the region, in the RALO is quite important but as well as ensuring participation by representation, by having, encouraging the ALSes to respond, encouraging working collaboratively, having good translation. All these kinds of things ensure participation. So to me it’s not only limited to operations and the location of one’s RIR but it’s for us, being that Caribbean block goes beyond that – it goes into these inherent and subjective criteria which we each have to really decide for ourselves: “What do we need to do as a region, the Caribbean Region and to a greater extent as a RALO to ensure that there’s proper representation and participation?” Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Cintra. This is Dev Anand, I see that we have a speaking queue. Let’s see. I saw that Roosevelt’s hand was up, so Fatima, do you want to respond to Carlton and Cintra or is your hand still up from before?
I hope the translation is working; I’m seeing all these messages. This is Dev Anand. Fatima, do you have a response to Carlton and Cintra?
Carlton Samuels: Move to Natalia.
Fatima Cambronero: This is Fatima, but I don’t think that Carlton understood the question or either I didn’t understand what he said or what he meant. My question is more concrete.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay.
Fatima Cambronero: Some countries are not affected in this report and especially in the Appendix D. There are countries, Caribbean countries that are inside the region. So my question is why do you want to keep the block, the whole Caribbean Region when in fact not all the countries are affected. Shouldn’t we be able to modify this report to be able to consider this possibility?
Carlton Samuels: Well yes, but all the countries are affected in one way or another. All the Caribbean countries are affected in one way or another. There are countries now… Jamaica is in the Latin American and Caribbean Region, and the report says “If you follow the RIRs, we would be in the North American Region.” Trinidad & Tobago is in the Latin American and Caribbean Region, and the report says “If you follow the RIR, they would remain in the Latin American Region.”
But, they do have an option to determine if they want to move. And I am saying to you that on the basis of keeping a contiguous Caribbean block it might be in Trinidad & Tobago’s and Guyana’s and Surinam’s interest to move – that is the second part of the report. You cannot read the report and just look at one aspect of it. It was very clear. The report says “Follow the RIRs and then make adjustments to suit people.” That’s the temper of the report. And anytime, if Jamaica moves it affects Trinidad because Trinidad would wish to caucus with Jamaica because we have a common heritage. So to say that they are not affected is a misreading of the practical aspects of it.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you. This is Dev Anand and that was Carlton speaking. Roosevelt and then Natalia, so Roosevelt, Roosevelt King, please go ahead.
Roosevelt King: I think that we need to start at the beginning when it comes to the Caribbean. My question would be what established the regions? The first, before I go on let me say that I totally agree with Carlton, that we should stay together as one even if we go to North America or Latin America. My quest is not to be part of either Latin America or North America but to be the sixth region.
As I said, you have to go back to how the regions were lumped together I should say. Who sat down and decided that there should only be five regions, and at what point in time did that happen? How long ago did that happen? What about developments since then? Isn’t it possible that our countries or regions are politically aware or need representation if it is about representation; that there should not be more than five regions? That is my point. I would like to hear from Carlton on that point since he seems to be very familiar with the report and with some of the history. I would really like to hear from Carlton if we cannot make a bid to be the sixth region in ICANN.
We cannot say that because it’s in the Pacific we’re happy to be with Australia, etc., etc. – well okay. But if we are not happy to be with North America or Latin America I think that that right should be respected and we should be one region.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you Roosevelt. This is Dev Anand, and just a reminder to everyone – please announce yourself before you speak because it helps the interpreters and it helps for transcription purposes.
Roosevelt King: That was Roosevelt King, sorry.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Sure, thank you, Roosevelt. This is Dev Anand. To answer your question, Roosevelt, the history, well the report does delve into the history of how the regions were first created and so forth when ICANN itself was first formed in 1998. And I guess the Geographical Regions Review Working Group was in fact to look at whether other regions should be created, and thus by having other regions, would that better fulfill ICANN’s bylaws of diversity and well representation and so forth.
But I’ll just have to say you have to read the report on that because it is fairly lengthy and unfortunately we don’t have time to go through that entire report. So I’ll just direct you to the report and read it. It makes for interesting reading. And I can point you to links to some of the presentations that have been done by the Geographic Regions Review Working Group with various slides and so forth, and because the Chair of the Geographic Regions Review Working Group, David Archibald – he has been talking about this actually I would say for the past five years, actually.
I remember in 2006 when he was first raising this issue of the geographic regions review. Okay. Well, I’ve heard I think so far that we do want the Caribbean to stay together as one unit. Lance, you haven’t said anything. Do you wish to say something on this? You may be muted, and it’s *7 to unmute. But if not I will just continue on.
Okay, well perhaps Lance has no other suggestion needed. Let me just ask a question then – some of the comments have referred to… Oh, I’m sorry, I’m now looking at the chat. Natalia, do you wish to ask a question for the record? Okay, no, I think she just wants to do it on the chat – very well.
Now, the question regarding effective representation: both Carlton, Cintra and I think myself all agree that effective representation is important, but what does that… Ah, Jose Arcé wishes to say something. Jose Arcé, please go ahead. Jose Arcé, please go ahead?
Okay, well one more time before I go back to Roosevelt. Jose Arcé?
Jose Arcé: This is Jose Arcé speaking.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes, Jose Arcé, please go ahead.
Jose Arcé: Who is the speaker on the English channel, Dev?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes, this is Dev. Jose Arcé, please go ahead.
Jose Arcé: Okay, Dev, thank you very much. I want to make a clarification when it comes to the issue of representation, the Caribbean representation. This might be just an idea, but as representation comes with a democratic system and in this case I congratulate Carlton Samuels on having proposed this issue and on proposing the fact that we can choose our representatives. We have one representative, one vote which is the vote into the amount of ALSes, so that representation is given by our democracy, our democratic voting system,
So if we lack representation or we don’t think that it is, we should change our system to be able to choose our representatives. So that is the idea I wanted to mention, thank you very much.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Jose Arcé. This is Dev Anand. Carlton, do you wish to respond?
Carlton Samuels: The question is whether or not the Caribbean can choose its own democratic representative?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes.
Carlton Samuels: Oh, well yes, I support it precisely because that’s what we are talking about – that the Caribbean can choose its own democratic representative. Thank you, Jose, for distilling it – that is exactly what it is all about. Effective representation means that we are represented; that is to say, the Caribbean can choose its democratic representative.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Carlton. This is Dev Anand; thank you, Carlton. Jose Arcé, do you wish to reply?
Jose Arcé: Yes, Carlton, thank you very much. And I repeat once again that the system we have to elect our representative as I understood was proposed by you so I congratulate you on this. It’s a very good system for these countries. I don’t understand if the lack of representation has to do with the system that we are having right now in LACRALO or if it is due to some other issues. That is my question, and I am Jose Arcé speaking.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: This is Dev Anand, thank you, Jose. Well, if I may…
Carlton Samuels: Let me answer the question.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, go ahead, Carlton.
Carlton Samuels: This is Carlton Samuels. The original idea, and since I was at the start of it, was that the LACRALO would be an organization that made decisions based on consensus – consensus. I opposed the recommendation at the time, and I won the day because it was proposed by powerful interests that we had a definition of LACRALO representation that made a distinct reference between Caribbean representation and Latin American representation.
We have a history of Caribbean and Latin America in this region where Caribbean becomes the “and” – it’s an afterthought. I can tell you of ten different organizations that are supposed to have Caribbean interests but it’s mostly Latin American, it’s drowned out by Latin America. ECLAC is one of them – I’m actually in Barbados at the meeting, and a representative of ECLAC – Economic Commission of Latin America and the Caribbean for those who don’t know – who showed up was one of them. He was totally unaware of Caribbean needs and he was representing the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean. That is one example.
I opposed it at the time because I thought we were not, the approach that we were going to make was that we were going to make decisions by consensus, which is to say after we’ve had lots of enlightened argument. After four years, I have come to the point where I agree with those who had proposed it from the outset, including one of the representatives from Latin America who was Argentinian at the time.
There is so far as I can see a lack of understanding of what consensus means. And to the extent that that is a challenge for us, and it continues to challenge us, then I do not see Caribbean voices as being effectively represented in LACRALO unless we change the way we are organized. I am now at that point of accepting that I was wrong at first. What I thought was workable was a perfect situation; it was unrealistic because yet again it had much to do with the different cultural antecedents of the Caribbean and Latin America.
And so unfortunately I have come to the point where I have to agree with the proponents that I successfully repulsed at the beginning of LACRALO. I do not believe that we can go much further.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Carlton, this is Dev Anand here. We just had a little line echo there, just towards the end. Okay, Roosevelt I’m sorry, I know you’ve had your hand up. Is it that you still had your hand up or you want to contribute something else? If not I will go to Fatima next.
Roosevelt King: I just wanted to find out what would be the implications of a sixth region, if that means as in officers or something to the (inaudible) to the structure?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: I’m sorry, Roosevelt, you’re going to just have to speak a little slowly there and…
Roosevelt King: I’m wondering about the effect of having a sixth region. Would it be a different structure because of the region? Would the region have its own representative and therefore there is another person?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you Roosevelt. This is Dev Anand. Unfortunately I’m hearing a lot of echoes on this line. I don’t know if persons are hearing me clearly on the Spanish channel… Ah, okay, so once it’s muted, I get you – thank you, Heidi.
Okay, this is Dev Anand. Okay, to answer the question regarding whether a sixth region would then have representatives and so forth, yes but… I imagine yes it would. But I would also think that having a sixth region, a sixth separate region added to the five regions would not be, I don’t think that’s feasible in my opinion. I don’t know if Carlton has an opinion on this as part of the Working Group because I’m certain they had very in-depth deliberations as to whether to create new regions in the report.
Because I think it would set a precedent, one, for like other possible sub-regions; and I should also mention, the report – and I’m afraid I’m going to have to refer you to the report because it’s a little too much documentation to just simply explain at this point, to say that there is a mention of having some special interest groups. However, special interest groups don’t have elected representatives; they are more a group that has a specific interest and that can come up with a statement and essentially lobby for support from the other regions.
Okay, I hope that answers the question. Okay, I am seeing a speaking order here – Fatima, Jose Arcé, and then Olivier. Fatima, please go ahead.
Fatima Cambronero: Excuse me, who was the last speaker?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: The previous speaker was Roosevelt asking about the possibility of a sixth region. And I was talking, I was replying to him that such a sixth region is-
Fatima Cambronero: So you were the next speaker?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: This is Dev Anand, yeah. I was the last speaker explaining why a sixth region is not likely.
Fatima Cambronero: Okay.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay? So Fatima, please go ahead.
Fatima Cambronero: We were not understanding well what the final report stated, so this is not clear. Are we going to leave the five regions following the criteria of registries? That is what the final report states. But my question is on the other hand, a list of questions for Carlton Samuels. When he talks about representation, the representation of the ALSes, my question is four years ago wasn’t it possible to make [average], to invite more people as we did in Argentina, Colombia? We could get more ALSes, so that is my comment.
I think we are doing our best effort to understand what the ALSes from the Caribbean Region believe or think, and when we have a concrete effort we need a concrete answer for concrete questions. Otherwise we are not even able to understand what you mean.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you Fatima. Carlton, do you wish to respond?
Carlton Samuels: Yes, I can respond very simply, Fatima – this is Carlton for the record. There is a sense – and this is not me, you can ask and poll the Caribbean ALSes. There is a sense that LACRALO now does not represent our interests as we see it. And I take some heat for that because the original representation model that I proposed and which came forward had a certain view of it; the certain view is that we all could get along and live together, and everybody would listen to each other and we would discuss the issues very openly and make decisions that were not based on where we were but as a general rule on what the outcome would be.
That has not been the case. The evidence is clear that that model, that utopian model that I had anticipated would have grown with LACRALO is not possible. I am now convinced. And therefore when my brethren accuse me of creating a situation which effectively disenfranchised them I am now at the point where I accept that the utopian model that I have does not work.
We are simply too different culturally. We have a different idea about elections. We have a different idea about representation. We have a different idea about what is important – all of these things, over and over again have come forward. And on that basis I can only say effective representation, which is what they complain about, is not possible in the current arrangement and it needs to be changed.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Carlton. This is Dev Anand. Jose Arcé, please go ahead and then Olivier. Jose Arcé, please go ahead.
Jose Arcé: Okay. Thanks, Dev, for giving me the floor. I am trying to understand after so many discussions what is the feeling of the Caribbean Region when it comes to the lack of representation. But I still don’t understand this idea so I’m going to make two remarks. I don’t know if Carlton, when he speaks about the lack of representation he referred to cultural issues only, or this is because of the existence of the election mechanism for the representatives.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay.
Jose Arcé: Do you want a consensus-based system? So I think it is a kind of feeling rather than an election mechanism for representatives because you’re not going to find this mechanism in any other region. So that is my idea.
Carlton Samuels: Who is talking? I’m not sure who is talking?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: This is Jose, okay, this is Dev. That was Jose Arcé talking and yeah, that was Jose Arcé talking, Carlton.
Jose Arcé: Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes, go ahead Jose Arcé, sorry.
Jose Arcé: Dev, this is Jose Arcé. I was speaking but I’ve finished with my remarks, so you can go on.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay. Actually before Carlton responds, Olivier has been having his hand raised for the longest while. So Olivier, please go ahead and then Carlton.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Thank you very much, Dev. It’s Olivier for the transcript and for the translation interpretation. I defer to Carlton because I think he might wish to respond to Jose. My point is actually regarding another point that is unrelated to this discussion. Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Oh, okay. Okay, thank you, Olivier. This is Dev. Carlton, do you wish to respond?
Carlton Samuels: Well, I mean it’s a simple thing. The history so far has not shown that we have a common understanding of what we mean by “consensus decision making.” It’s not possible and I don’t think at this stage it’s going to make a difference. The history does not support an understanding of consensus, what consensus means. We’ve been trying for four years, it’s not happening. I don’t think it’s going to happen anymore because it is primarily culturally based. That’s the first thing.
The second thing is, and quite frankly it is this: you know as much as I do that some of our ALSes simply don’t want to participate because they say it is difficult to have to wait for somebody who speaks another language to hear what they have to say and then run the risk of being misinterpreted. So they don’t feel represented if we have to go to [Spanish], especially since the working language of the ICANN organization is in fact English. They feel that we are disadvantaged from going from English to Spanish to go back to English.
That is part of the problem that they have, and I didn’t think it was a big problem because I thought well, you know, if you have it translated and then come back then maybe something else will be added to it that will make it richer. The practice so far is there’s not been an enrichment. It has not happened. At this stage, I don’t think it will happen.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you, Carlton. We’ve just reached the top of the hour here. I’m sorry, Olivier, you have your hand up still or as a new point?
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Thank you, Dev. Yes, it’s Olivier. I deferred to Carlton for him to answer Jose Arcé’s but I still have my point to make after that discussion is made.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Oh, okay. Well please make that point because we’re coming to the top of the hour, so I think we might be wrapping up. So please, make your point – this is Dev.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Okay, thank you very much, Dev. This is Olivier for the transcript. I wanted to comment on Roosevelt’s suggestion of the sixth region rather than five regions, and I wanted to say that you can absolutely forget about adding another region for several reasons, the first one being that an additional region in At-Large would require additional members of the At-Large Advisory Committee. You’d require three more members plus two regional leads, so that’s five more people would have to be funded to go to At-Large meetings on top of all of the other people. So that increases the budget on one side.
Then it also creates an imbalance on the Nominating Committee. The ICANN Nominating Committee has five of our members, and if we want to add a sixth member then we are creating an imbalance on the Nominating Committee where we are under fire and we are already told that we are very influential on the Nominating Committee. So it is like opening a Pandora’s box at that point, because we might even lose members on the Nominating Committee – we might then only have three members on the Nominating Committee.
It’s just not a good idea at all to ask for a sixth region, and that’s what I wanted to add. Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Olivier. Indeed I agree with what you said. Well, we are now coming up to the top of the hour here. So what are our next steps? I think that some progress has been made and it’s good to hear some… Okay, Roosevelt, if you wish to… Okay, go ahead Roosevelt but do make it a very short response still because I do want to wrap up.
Roosevelt King: Yeah, well I heard your last comment. Maybe it might be easier to (inaudible) but if there cannot be not a sixth region and the Caribbean will be subsumed by either North or Latin America if we are there, what is the position in terms of the… I don’t know if it’s a mandate or if it’s a constitutional provision for diverse representation? I mean where are you getting it? If you say that these things can’t happen what is left for representation as far as we are concerned?
I mean if there were four and they were funding four, then somebody will say there should be five; and then somebody will say that means three additional or five additional people. I mean there happens to be five. I don’t think Carlton beat himself up across his decision years ago because maybe if I was there I might have felt the same way. But I am asking that we look at what has happened and what has transpired.
Are we looking to the future of ICANN because I mean, the internet and connectivity is something that is growing rapidly. Can we still continue the five regions with such activity? These are some questions that need to be asked. What about the future of ICANN? What about the future looking down the road? Support the specific [gaps] more and say “Look, I think we should come together as one thing.” I mean, what do you say – “No?” because the five has the regional [managers or partners] demand that everything comes under those five? Are we back at the stage where the [Pope] sat down and drew lines and decided “Well, this is yours, this is yours, this is yours,” and it only came out four or five? Where are we going? Where are we really going?
I think that it needs to be addressed because the internet is not living in this way. It’s growing daily and there’s a need for representation, and therefore the need for representation – why only five regions are ruling the roost to the exclusion of everybody else? Thanks.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well, okay. Thanks, Roosevelt. I would say that the Geographic Review Team is every five years. The Working Team does recommend a review to see whether the framework is working in terms of the geographic regions. And my only comment would be that we have to go through the report and review it, because like I said there’s a lot of history there. And like Olivier says, it will make things I think extremely complex to try to have additional regions; complex to the point where it may even result that there’ll be less representation as a result.
So yeah, okay. I just want to – it’s now eight minutes past the hour, and I know we started ten minutes past the hour. What do people want to do at this point? I have to say there’s a very active chat on this matter and I must say, do we want to continue to talk for like say another ten minutes? Or should we just stop at this point and try to… I would say as a recommendation we try to put this in writing, some of these points in writing and yeah, put this in writing and get this formally translated properly for the list; and yes, get it properly translated, such documentation.
Roosevelt? Sure, go ahead.
Cintra Sooknanan: You may be muted.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Roosevelt? Or have we lost him?
Roosevelt King: Hello?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes, go ahead, Roosevelt. I saw your hand was raised again.
Roosevelt King: Right, I was saying that if we cannot have a [sixth] region or if there is an objection, is there a possibility that the Caribbean can have a special representative?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well, this is what I think Carlton has been speaking to, speaking of in terms of effective representation of the Caribbean in LACRALO and in the ALAC. And that has been one of the discussions as one way of eliminating that problem.
Just to clarify something very quickly, though – it’s now ten past the hour. Shall we try to just do this for another ten minutes? Any objections quickly so we can then act, because I’m seeing hands raised still? Okay, and nobody’s objecting. Going once, going twice – okay.
So we’re going to have an extension of the call for ten more minutes. Okay. I am now seeing Sergio Salinas Porto and then Jose Arcé, so Sergio Salinas, please go ahead.
Sergio Salinas Porto: Okay, for the record my name is Sergio Salinas Porto. I have some questions. I don’t know who was talking, I think it was Cintra, but according to what I heard during the last meeting we understand that the Caribbean Region or some countries of the Caribbean Region should have one representative. This would solve all the issues. The other issue that we have to take into account is the language issue. And I would like to ask you, what do you mean by special representative?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Special representative?
Carlton Samuels: It’s because Roosevelt was asking the question; it’s not Cintra.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Ah, thank you.
Carlton Samuels: Roosevelt asked the question of whether or not if we can get…
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Go ahead. Carlton will respond.
Carlton Samuels: Okay, let me answer the question. This is Carlton for Sergio. One of our colleagues, Roosevelt King, asked a question that in the event that the Caribbean cannot be a distinct region, meaning it has its own representation directly into the At-Large which is in the ALAC, is there a way to have special representation for the Caribbean to ensure that the Caribbean views are passed up?
And Dev answered the question by saying that is one of the things that we have been discussing on the modifications of the bylaw, to have a diversity recommendation that says “With regard to the ALAC and just the ALAC representation, the Caribbean representation should be assured at ALAC.” There are two reasons for that.
One, the Caribbean believes that if we don’t have effective representation, meaning somebody who understands and speaks like us talking in the ALAC which operates in English by the way, so we don’t have to translate what we say to get it brought to the ALAC. The representative would in fact be taking exactly what we say without translation or interpretation directly to the ALAC. That is he was asking the question on and I’m saying that that is something that has been put forward – a diversity requirement in the rules of procedure for LACRALO, in the LACRALO operating instruments or principles.
That will in fact make sure that the Caribbean has direct representation to the ALAC, and we’re speaking of ALAC only. We’re not speaking of LACRALO – ALAC itself, which is where the action happens.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Carlton. This is Dev Anand. So Sergio, do you have another; you said you had two questions? Was there a second question or if not, I’ll go to Jose Arcé.
Interpreter: Dev, could you please repeat your question?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: My question was whether Sergio wishes to continue speaking because he has his hand still raised.
Sergio Salinas Porto: I have finished with my intervention.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you, Sergio. Jose Arcé, please go ahead. This is Dev.
Jose Arcé: I want to make a clarification because I think it is important, what Sergio said. This is a point of view of the Caribbean Region which is the fact of wanting to have a sixth representative, and wanting to have a sixth representative in a region that is so diverse – I think this is not something democratic. I mean I don’t agree with that.
When it comes to the answer given by Carlton Samuels to Sergio, when it comes to what you are looking for, I think that you’re not going to find that in North America because in the North American Region, you are not going to find a sixth position being in ALAC for the Caribbean Region. I don’t think this would be the case. And perhaps I don’t know if my conclusion is correct, but my conclusion is exactly the same as Sergio’s conclusion: everything will be solved if you have one fixed representative from the Caribbean Region to the ALAC.
The democratic mechanism for the election of representatives are not going to [eschew] of the Caribbean Region. In any region, a fixed position… And you are not going to have someone, a representative believing and feeling like them and speaking the same language because if you are in a region where all the speakers speak English and there is someone that doesn’t believe or think in the same way, you will be having a representation problem there.
Carlton Samuels: That’s what you have now. That’s what you have now so that is not a new thing. We are actually [bouncing the rubber] – that’s what you have now.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, just to say that was Carlton. Carlton, do you wish to respond to this?
Carlton Samuels: No. What I hear Jose saying is that the status quo is good. What that tells me is that what he’s just done is to totally dismiss the Caribbean concerns in the name of democracy. That is a [quite deal]-style leadership. That does not work. If you think that the status quo is what is important, if you think the status quo satisfies the Caribbean I am absolutely sure to tell you that that is not the case.
Jose Arcé: Please don’t interrupt me when I’m speaking. So if we cannot assure the representation of our ideas and positions in this way, so if we cannot do so what is the explanation that you’re going to give, Carlton Samuels, please?
Carlton Samuels: The explanation is very- Can I respond? The explanation is very simple. If you accept the notion and does not dismiss… If you dismiss Caribbean concerns as nonexistent then there is nothing more to talk about. You are wrong, dead wrong – not just in fact but in principle. So there is a situation. The Caribbean believes that it is not effectively represented. The question is what do we do to solve that problem? What you’re saying is more of the same. Your response is “more of the same.” That can’t be serious.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you Carlton. Okay, and I think Cintra probably wants to add something to that so please go ahead, Cintra. Go ahead.
Cintra Sooknanan: Thank you, Dev Anand. This is Cintra. I just don’t like the road that Jose is going down. I don’t think it’s for us to speculate what NARALO is going to do or how much they are going to respect our point of view, or how little they are going to respect our participation. But the fact of the matter is we are not feeling that level of respect right now in LACRALO. So what do we do about it right here and right now in LACRALO?
This is an opportunity for us to have some self-reflection and some introspection, and let it not be clouded by what anybody else is going to do. Just let us look at internal issues and see if this can be a fix, and if a workable situation can come out of it; and if not well then the answer is [prayer]. Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Cintra. Okay, well I know I said ten minutes and now we’re coming up to that. Alright, Christian and then Roosevelt. Christian? Christian Moure, I hope I’m pronouncing his surname correctly, please go ahead.
Christian Moure: I echo Cintra’s remarks and I think that taking into account these communication and language issues we should settle on a specific problem. We should state our objective. So that is basically my remark about it.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, this is Dev – thank you Christian, sorry I’m probably mispronouncing it. Roosevelt, please go ahead.
Roosevelt King: We’ve talked about this and we should just be focused on this in terms of just ICANN. When you look around there are different examples. St. Lucia has an [ICG strategy]; St. [Vinta] has an [ICG strategy], [Nieves] has an [ICG strategy]. Barbados has one, Trinidad has one – there are some countries that don’t have an [ICG strategy]. So my question would be why are these a part of ICANN? Why are these countries, why are these entities… Countries that sat down and consulted with their governments to come up with an [ICG plan] are not members here. And the reason is, and there’s a history behind this, the history is…
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay…
Roosevelt King: Sorry.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Go ahead. Do make it short, go ahead.
Roosevelt King: And the history is that in all the other areas of activity where Caribbean and Latin America is lumped together the Caribbean gets nothing. So eventually we have moved away from being a part of anything to do with Latin America. Our end users and our organizations, I mean heavily the [ACP] and CSME. So I mean you know what, anytime… Right now there’s a little problem as far as EU relations are concerned because we’re beginning to get lumped with Latin America, and you know, that is causing some sourness in the (inaudible). But wherever we are represented as a block, as the Caribbean we are participating. Wherever we are part even in terms of governments, [the OS] for example – not very many of our governments are active in the [OS] because they are subsumed by the Latin America. Thanks.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, well…
Carlton Samuels: Can I just say something, Dev?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, please go ahead, Carlton, go ahead.
Carlton Samuels: Hi, this is Carlton Samuels for the record. I am in Barbados at a consultation and information and knowledge management for the region… Hello?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well, Carlton, you’re still on but there’s somebody that’s gone, okay. Okay, thank you.
Carlton Samuels: Okay, and as I said to you there was representation from so-called regional groups. There were regional groups associated with [CARACOM] which is the political entity that connects the Caribbean countries, including Haiti, and there was representation from the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean, which is a United Nations agency based, by the way, in Trinidad & Tobago.
And the representative spoke at this consultation, and what was instructive for everybody was that first of all he was a native Spanish speaker so he had difficulty following the conversation. There was very little translation. And the frustration level rose even more when in trying to speak… And I don’t believe that this is something that’s deliberate; it’s just the way it is. He made a representation that said very little about the Caribbean in a meeting that was talking about the Caribbean. And I felt sorry for the fellow because he was trying to do his best, but again it is part of what we face in the Caribbean all the time and it is not about to get any better. I am now convinced.
I was the one who had this utopian idea that given internet governance and the internet of things, and the internet of the new paradigm probably we could use this opportunity to break that mold. It has not happened and I doubt if it will ever happen. Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you, Carlton. Well I see Roosevelt has disconnected but I’m also thinking that we are probably reaching the upper limit of how the interpreters are, so I don’t think I want to bring this up. I know we have a lot to still discuss and I’m very grateful to see some of these comments coming in the chat. I think this is probably the longest chat I’ve ever seen in any LACRALO call to be quite honest, and I’m glad that a dialog is taking place.
However, I just want to put out there what should be our next steps from this because one, well there’s two issues being talked about here and we’ve kind of discussed both issues: the Geographic Regions report and the issue regarding the bylaw modifications in terms of getting a diversity requirement. I’m almost tempted to say we should probably try to have another conference call dedicated to this issue. What’s the immediate reaction to that? Or should we try to have this done and put arguments for this, for the representation and for the Geographic regions? Let’s try to write it up and get it properly translated so that everybody understands. Does anybody wish to quickly… How do you think that would work? Would that work well or not? I see Fatima wishes to respond. Go ahead, Fatima.
Fatima Cambronero: Thanks, Dev, this is Fatima. As I said before I think we are making our best effort to understand what is the position, what are the interests and the needs. But I think and I feel that we are going around the same issues and we are not understanding what you mean because you’re not being clear, you are not giving concrete answers. We want to understand things and you’re not giving us the answers, so if we are going to have teleconferences just to speak about the same things all the time I think this is not good. I want to understand your particular interests. That’s it.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay. Thank you, Fatima. Let me make a suggestion then. How about we write some documentation for this and have it ready, have it translated so that it will be ready for another conference call on this topic.
Carlton Samuels: Can I ask a question?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Go ahead, Carlton.
Carlton Samuels: This is Carlton Samuels for the record. I keep on hearing “we are not understanding.” Can you tell me what it is you don’t understand by the Caribbean declaring it is not represented in LACRALO at the minute, effectively represented? Can you tell me what is the difficulty in understanding that? Could you also tell me what is the difficulty in understanding what the proposal to remedy this is, which is we have a diversity requirement in our LACRALO rules that have the Caribbean returning one member from LACRALO to the ALAC? What is difficult about understanding that?
I am having a serious issue, and here again it’s probably the Spanish in the translation. Again, I am absolutely sure every single Caribbean member understands that. Do we have an objection from the Caribbean about understanding that? Speak up.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: I’m hearing no one now, Carlton. I don’t think there’s any objection.
Carlton Samuels: Yes, there is no lack of understanding of that in the Caribbean. There’s a simple thing – the Caribbean believes…
Fatima Cambronero: I’d like to respond.
Carlton Samuels: …it cannot be effectively represented. The Caribbean believes the way to remedy that is to have a diversity requirement that allows a representative from the Caribbean to be returned to ALAC for the Caribbean representation.
Fatima Cambronero: I’m talking and I want to answer to you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, alright. This is Dev Anand here. Fatima, go ahead, and then I see Jose Arcé’s hand is also raised. Fatima, please go ahead. This is Dev. Fatima, please go ahead.
Fatima Cambronero: Carlton, we don’t understand when you go over the same issues about why you don’t feel represented. We don’t understand what you need to be better represented.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay.
Carlton Samuels: Okay, I understand. So as I understand it it’s the remedy that you’re having difficulty…
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Come on, Carlton, let her finish.
Fatima Cambronero: …issue all the time.
Carlton Samuels: Okay, so as I understand it, it is the remedy that you don’t understand.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Hold on.
Fatima Cambronero: If you are not being clear we won’t be able to understand what you mean, okay?
Carlton Samuels: Okay, okay. So you understand.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Hold on, hold on Carlton. So Fatima, are you finished so that Carlton should respond or do you want to say something more? This is Dev.
Carlton Samuels: Okay, so if the question that I’m asked is what…
Fatima Cambronero: I’m finished.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Hold on, let her finish, Carlton. Go ahead, Fatima, please go ahead.
Fatima Cambronero: I have finished with my intervention.
Carlton Samuels: Okay, so there are two points, so let me go at it again. There are two points: there is a question of representation and we specifically speak of effective representation. Effective representation means that as native English speakers it is a burden for some to have to go to Spanish in order to go to English when what we want to say can be taken to the policy producing, policy recommending body which is the ALAC directly in the language that we speak natively.
Because of this need to translate, it effectively misrepresents, sometimes underrepresents the Caribbean concern. So that’s the representation issue, effective representation. Okay. So the question is what is the remedy for that? If you believe that the Caribbean has a legitimate, legitimate reason to say this and we have proposed a remedy which is on the table, is it you don’t understand the remedy that we’re proposing or do you think that the remedy is inadequate to the injury?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, unfortunately with that, Carlton, I think I want to stop the call at this point because as I said, it is reaching the upper limit of our interpreters who have been doing for their first time a great job. So I do want to put a stop to the discussion at this point. I know we want to continue it so I believe we can try to have a second conference call probably next week, Thursday or Friday and but in the interim of that time we will try to I think put some things in writing because again, it does seem to be more of a misunderstanding or not understanding each other.
So yeah, so I think Jose Arcé, I’m sorry…
Carlton Samuels: Personally I really don’t think it’s going to be very useful, very-
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Why?
Carlton Samuels: I don’t think it’s going to be useful because at this stage, after a year of this discussion I am hearing the request of our colleagues that they do not understand the Caribbean issue; neither do they understand the Caribbean representation remedy to solve the problem. So to me, after a year of back-and-forth about what the issue is and what the solution could be…. And there is still a representation that we do not understand it, then I think the language issue, I think the language difference is complicit. And to that extent that they are complicit you won’t get any better result.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, but my final question… I’m going to have to end the call here because I do want to thank the interpreters. Thank you to Christina for making it happen, okay, and I think that the discussion has been long overdue, actually, because we’ve been trying to have this discussion for quite a while now and at least we’re now starting.
Carlton, I will say we just have to try just one more time, so that’s my thought. If you have, you know… So with that I’m going to end the call. Jose and I will make an announcement on when we can try to have another call and again, really, I would say applaud, thank you so much for the interpreters again, please. So with that I will end the call and I’ll see some of you on the call on Wednesday. Okay?
Thank you so much and thank you all, bye. Thank you, Olivier, by the way for staying on for this long call. My goodness.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Oh! I don’t think I can get any sleep now. I’m wide awake.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: It was that stimulating to you, okay.
Heidi Ullrich: This is Heidi. The interpretation seems to have gone very well. A few little glitches but I think in the long run absolutely excellent.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Go ahead, Olivier.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Sorry, I was just going to say it’s just an improvement, certainly an improvement.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Oh, I think so indeed, yes. I mean this is probably the longest chat I’ve ever seen on LACRALO call.
Cintra Sooknanan: I prefer the chat.
Heidi Ullrich: Olivier, did you say “only an improvement” or “certainly an improvement?”
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: I said it’s certainly an improvement.
Heidi Ullrich: Excellent, okay.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: It’s certainly an improvement. The last call was horrendous; this one certainly was an improvement. The only thing I would say is I think we’ve probably worn the interpreters down already because they can see how crazy it gets on the calls.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: I know, I was trying to end the call.
Heidi Ullrich: What happened was they were thinking it was going to be one hour so they didn’t switch interpreters, so the first interpreter was doing the entire 90 minutes which was… So what needs to be done is we just need to inform them so that they can switch. Now that switch takes between five seconds and a minute, I’m hearing, so Christina and I will have a call tomorrow to talk about that.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Short conference calls in At-Large? I think not.
Heidi Ullrich: You’re raising the bar. In terms of the next call, I’ve Skyped with Sylvia and she’s said yes, next Thursday, Friday – even though we are going to be in a workshop retreat next week we can still do probably Thursday or Friday next week.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, that sounds like a plan. I mean I don’t know if Carlton is still on the call, but I mean I understand the frustration of we keep doing this and we keep going around in circles, but maybe now we can have proper interpretation and maybe we can get some closure into this.
Cintra Sooknanan: No Dev, I’m sorry – that’s still optimistic. No. This is not about interpretation. He responded saying the exact same thing she’s asking in the chat [twice a few minutes after]. He said it. It’s not interpretation. This is perspective, this is deeper than that and that’s the difficult part of all this.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yeah, well I mean, I think the effort has to be made to at least get it on paper at least, explicitly on paper to say “Yes, okay, this is what we have observed, this is why we are unhappy. This is what we think would help alleviate the issue,” and state it as plainly as possible. But you may be right, because like I said, I’ve observed personally – there’s a sense of some sidelining towards myself and so forth over this year.
Cintra Sooknanan: You know what hurts as well? You have new people like Raquel coming in and they think we are making a big fuss over nothing because they haven’t been taken through the history as far as the Caribbean ALSes’ response to the first Working Group report, etc., etc. So they are coming in with no kind of knowledge as to NomCom representation being separate from LACRALO representation, nothing; and obviously they’re not being briefed either. So I don’t know. We have something that maybe you and Jose need to discuss, or I don’t know. I don’t know.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well, I can’t think of anything at this point.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Okay, well I can think of one thing and that’s bed and a pillow, so…
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: That sounds like an excellent idea for you, Olivier.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: So I’ll let you continue on your discussions. Speak soon and get ready for tomorrow’s taxing ALAC call which will more than likely last another lifetime.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, I’ll see you on that call tomorrow, Olivier. Have a good night.
Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Thanks, bye.
Cintra Sooknanan: Okay, bye from me as well.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, yes. I think Lance had dropped off the call unfortunately.
Cintra Sooknanan: He did drop off quite early.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yeah, unfortunately. Okay. Have a good evening, everyone.
Cintra Sooknanan: Okay, bye.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Bye.
[End of Transcript]